Saved, Unsaved, Saved again, etc

[Sudsy]

On another thread with a poll someone said they doubt we can know for sure we are born again. This got me wondering about the views here regarding salvation. My understanding of Anabaptism generally is that you can be saved and then lose your salvation (become unsaved). Although I was in an MB church were some folks did believe in OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved).

For this thread - the word 'saved' is simply referring to if you should die at this very moment will you have eternal life with God or eternal life without God. I don't care to get into what the opposite of eternal life without God means to everyone, just to focus rather on the state of being 'saved' as described in the underlined.

Here are some statements and questions that I hope will draw some input and refer to them by number please in your thoughts. Use scripture support wherever possible.

1. A person who is truly 'born from above' or 'born again' (saved) and 'sealed by the Holy Spirit', will forever be saved.
2. A person can be in a saved state, then unsaved, then saved again.
3. If the answer to # 1 is 'No', then will they know the moment they become 'unsaved' ?
4. If the answer to # 1 is 'Yes' then how do they know they are truly 'saved' ?
5 If the answer to # 2 is 'No' then is it because they never were truly saved ?
6. If the answer to # 2 is 'Yes' is there certain criteria that made them unsaved again ?

I was raised in a certain fear that my salvation was pretty fragile and if I sinned before or without asking forgiveness, should I die at that time, I would not be saved. So my salvation was quite dependent on my performance in my 'saved state'. But it was never clearly spelled out to me if there might be some allowances made should I sin but not immediately confess that sin. As for 'assurance of salvation', I had little to none. Perhaps others have a similar experience on this they care to share.

I know this has been discussed at times before but I am concerned that the one who selected on that poll they doubt we can know for sure we are born again could use some input on the subject.

[JimFoxvog]

For this thread - the word 'saved' is simply referring to if you should die at this very moment will you have eternal life with God or eternal life without God. I don't care to get into what the opposite of eternal life without God means to everyone, just to focus rather on the state of being 'saved' as described in the underlined.

I don't want this to derail the thread, but one alternative to eternal life with God may be to not have eternal life.

Back to the subject:

1. A person who is truly 'born from above' or 'born again' (saved) and 'sealed by the Holy Spirit', will forever be saved.
2. A person can be in a saved state, then unsaved, then saved again.
3. If the answer to # 1 is 'No', then will they know the moment they become 'unsaved' ?
4. If the answer to # 1 is 'Yes' then how do they know they are truly 'saved' ?
5 If the answer to # 2 is 'No' then is it because they never were truly saved ?
6. If the answer to # 2 is 'Yes' is there certain criteria that made them unsaved again ?

I believe Hebrews 6 refutes #1.

4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt. 7 For ground that has drunk the rain that has often fallen on it and that produces vegetation useful to those it is cultivated for receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and about to be cursed, and will be burned at the end. (HCSB)

It also casts doubt on #2, that the person can be saved again. Some translations seem to not rule out being saved again.

4 For it is impossible to keep on restoring to repentance time and again people who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have become partners with the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of God’s word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away, as long as they continue to crucify the Son of God to their own detriment by exposing him to public ridicule. (ISV)

I hope ISV is correct, but have not read scholarly debates on which is the better translation.

I haven't seen a scriptural answer to #3, knowing one is unsaved.

Hebrews 6 seems to refute # 5; it seems to be saying that the person who had fallen away really had been saved.

[Sudsy]

For this thread - the word 'saved' is simply referring to if you should die at this very moment will you have eternal life with God or eternal life without God. I don't care to get into what the opposite of eternal life without God means to everyone, just to focus rather on the state of being 'saved' as described in the underlined.

I don't want this to derail the thread, but one alternative to eternal life with God may be to not have eternal life.

True.

Back to the subject:

1. A person who is truly 'born from above' or 'born again' (saved) and 'sealed by the Holy Spirit', will forever be saved.
2. A person can be in a saved state, then unsaved, then saved again.
3. If the answer to # 1 is 'No', then will they know the moment they become 'unsaved' ?
4. If the answer to # 1 is 'Yes' then how do they know they are truly 'saved' ?
5 If the answer to # 2 is 'No' then is it because they never were truly saved ?
6. If the answer to # 2 is 'Yes' is there certain criteria that made them unsaved again ?

I believe Hebrews 6 refutes #1.

4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt. 7 For ground that has drunk the rain that has often fallen on it and that produces vegetation useful to those it is cultivated for receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and about to be cursed, and will be burned at the end. (HCSB)

It also casts doubt on #2, that the person can be saved again. Some translations seem to not rule out being saved again.

4 For it is impossible to keep on restoring to repentance time and again people who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have become partners with the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of God’s word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away, as long as they continue to crucify the Son of God to their own detriment by exposing him to public ridicule. (ISV)

I hope ISV is correct, but have not read scholarly debates on which is the better translation.

I haven't seen a scriptural answer to #3, knowing one is unsaved.

Hebrews 6 seems to refute # 5; it seems to be saying that the person who had fallen away really had been saved.

Thankyou. This Hebrews 6 text was the text my father would use often when discussing this subject with his best friend a Plymouth Brethren. Not sure why that group requires driving a Plymouth.

Anyway, joking aside here is an OSAS explanation of Hebrews 6 - https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

This suggests this text is about unbelievers who are 'intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.' I sometimes wonder if this is the case for many who are part of a church community, do what is expected of them but have never really been born again. By the way, this Plymouth Brethren friend tried hard but never did convince my father on OSAS.

[ohio jones]

My understanding of Anabaptism generally is that you can be saved and then lose your salvation (become unsaved).

Seems to me that's more of a Wesleyan/Holiness way of framing the question. What I'm more familiar with in the Menno world is the understanding that if you have a will that is free enough to accept God's offer of initial salvation, that acceptance doesn't mean giving up the ability to choose to follow Jesus. Indeed, that's a choice that must constantly be reaffirmed. But that choice carries with it the possibility of choosing to reject salvation, as Jim referenced in Hebrews 6.

I lose some paperwork once in a while, or a tool. Or my marbles. Usually I look for them and they show up again, sooner or later. That's quite a bit different than deliberately throwing them in the trash.

[cmbl]

On another thread with a poll someone said they doubt we can know for sure we are born again. This got me wondering about the views here regarding salvation. My understanding of Anabaptism generally is that you can be saved and then lose your salvation (become unsaved). Although I was in an MB church were some folks did believe in OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved).

Yes, ethic Anabaptists do often adopt non-Anabaptist theology.

For this thread - the word 'saved' is simply referring to if you should die at this very moment will you have eternal life with God or eternal life without God. I don't care to get into what the opposite of eternal life without God means to everyone, just to focus rather on the state of being 'saved' as described in the underlined.

That is a definition of 'saved' that leaves out a lot of good news, but I recognize that it's one that is prevalent in America (including in Mennonite churches). And I do find your question worthwhile, so I'll participate.

Here are some statements and questions that I hope will draw some input and refer to them by number please in your thoughts. Use scripture support wherever possible.

1. A person who is truly 'born from above' or 'born again' (saved) and 'sealed by the Holy Spirit', will forever be saved.

No. Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10, 2 Peter 2, John 15, 1 Corinthians 10, Colossians 1:23, 2 Timothy 4:9-10, 1 John 3, Romans 11.

2. A person can be in a saved state, then unsaved, then saved again.

Yes, James 5.

3. If the answer to # 1 is 'No', then will they know the moment they become 'unsaved' ?

Perhaps.

6. If the answer to # 2 is 'Yes' is there certain criteria that made them unsaved again ?

Returning to living in sin(s) would make them reject/forfeit/"lose" their salvation. Of course, "salvation" is not a one-time event, so I would rather speak of something like beginning the Christian life and not finishing it than "losing" one's salvation.

I was raised in a certain fear that my salvation was pretty fragile and if I sinned before or without asking forgiveness, should I die at that time, I would not be saved. So my salvation was quite dependent on my performance in my 'saved state'. But it was never clearly spelled out to me if there might be some allowances made should I sin but not immediately confess that sin. As for 'assurance of salvation', I had little to none. Perhaps others have a similar experience on this they care to share.

Thanks for sharing this. It's interesting how more 19th-20th century revivalism/fundamentalism brings less peace. Sometimes the people who focus most on "salvation" have the least peace. The late Lester Bauman (lesterb) once posted to the old MennoDiscuss something to the effect of, "many Fundamentalists are relying on a formula. Take away the formula and they revert to their fear. I am convinced the 'living hope' view was more Biblical. They [Mennonites who became Old Orders] believed in a God who knew their frame and would bear with them in their infirmities."

Then there is Robert Friedmann's Hutterite story:

Several years ago, after a conference in South Dakota, a number of ministers decided to visit a nearby Hutterite Bruderhof, the oldest one in the United States, and I was invited to joint this group. We were cordially received and shown around and then the elders were ready to discuss their way of life. One of the very first questions the ministers asked was this: "What do you people teach regarding salvation?" Thereupon the very intelligent brother, who had very likely not anticipated this question, paused a moment and then said quietly, but with great assurance: "If we live in obedience to God's commandments, we are certain of being in God's gracious hands; we do not worry further about our salvation. Rather, we try to walk the narrow path in the fear of the Lord. We fight sin and practice brotherly love. How then can redemption be lacking?" The reply was as simple as it was authentic. Now it was the minsters, trained in conventional theology, who were surprised, and even a bit shocked. They had not anticipated such an answer.

The Hutterite brother had a calm assurance (small "a") which dwarfed the "Assurance" of the visiting ministers.

[Sudsy]

My understanding of Anabaptism generally is that you can be saved and then lose your salvation (become unsaved).

Seems to me that's more of a Wesleyan/Holiness way of framing the question. What I'm more familiar with in the Menno world is the understanding that if you have a will that is free enough to accept God's offer of initial salvation, that acceptance doesn't mean giving up the ability to choose to follow Jesus. Indeed, that's a choice that must constantly be reaffirmed. But that choice carries with it the possibility of choosing to reject salvation, as Jim referenced in Hebrews 6.

I lose some paperwork once in a while, or a tool. Or my marbles. Usually I look for them and they show up again, sooner or later. That's quite a bit different than deliberately throwing them in the trash.

Yes, that is what my father would argue that basically one does not lose their ability to chose once saved and this choosing would include being still free to reject salvation through Jesus. So, how would you explain Eph 4:30 NKV

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Is this the same idea as free will continuing that although the Holy Spirit seals us for the day of redemption, our continued free will allows us to break that seal ? (I think much of this is related to whether we chose God or God choses us and most OSAS folks I know believe the latter).

If true, we can break that seal, then we are saying that the Holy Spirit is not just grieved or quenched by our living a Christian life but actually He no longer resides in that person, correct ? In that state they will not inherit eternal life ? And if so, can He return to that person ?

Not that you are requested to answer these questions but just throwing them in for more exploring.

[Sudsy]

On another thread with a poll someone said they doubt we can know for sure we are born again. This got me wondering about the views here regarding salvation. My understanding of Anabaptism generally is that you can be saved and then lose your salvation (become unsaved). Although I was in an MB church were some folks did believe in OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved).

Yes, ethic Anabaptists do often adopt non-Anabaptist theology.

For this thread - the word 'saved' is simply referring to if you should die at this very moment will you have eternal life with God or eternal life without God. I don't care to get into what the opposite of eternal life without God means to everyone, just to focus rather on the state of being 'saved' as described in the underlined.

That is a definition of 'saved' that leaves out a lot of good news, but I recognize that it's one that is prevalent in America (including in Mennonite churches). And I do find your question worthwhile, so I'll participate.

Here are some statements and questions that I hope will draw some input and refer to them by number please in your thoughts. Use scripture support wherever possible.

1. A person who is truly 'born from above' or 'born again' (saved) and 'sealed by the Holy Spirit', will forever be saved.

No. Hebrews 6, Hebrews 10, 2 Peter 2, John 15, 1 Corinthians 10, Colossians 1:23, 2 Timothy 4:9-10, 1 John 3, Romans 11.

Scriptures used by the other side - John 5:24; John 6:23; John 10:27-29; Romans 8:32-39; 1 Corinthians 3:15; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 1:12; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 John 5:13.

2. A person can be in a saved state, then unsaved, then saved again.

Yes, James 5.

3. If the answer to # 1 is 'No', then will they know the moment they become 'unsaved' ?

Perhaps.

6. If the answer to # 2 is 'Yes' is there certain criteria that made them unsaved again ?

Returning to living in sin(s) would make them reject/forfeit/"lose" their salvation. Of course, "salvation" is not a one-time event, so I would rather speak of something like beginning the Christian life and not finishing it than "losing" one's salvation.

OK but I believe you still agree that the final result is still the same - no eternal life with God if one does not 'finish' in a born again state, right ? Then that begs the question can one 'backslide' (wander from living the Christian life) and still be in a saved state ?

I was raised in a certain fear that my salvation was pretty fragile and if I sinned before or without asking forgiveness, should I die at that time, I would not be saved. So my salvation was quite dependent on my performance in my 'saved state'. But it was never clearly spelled out to me if there might be some allowances made should I sin but not immediately confess that sin. As for 'assurance of salvation', I had little to none. Perhaps others have a similar experience on this they care to share.

Thanks for sharing this. It's interesting how more 19th-20th century revivalism/fundamentalism brings less peace. Sometimes the people who focus most on "salvation" have the least peace. The late Lester Bauman (lesterb) once posted to the old MennoDiscuss something to the effect of, "many Fundamentalists are relying on a formula. Take away the formula and they revert to their fear. I am convinced the 'living hope' view was more Biblical. They [Mennonites who became Old Orders] believed in a God who knew their frame and would bear with them in their infirmities."

Then there is Robert Friedmann's Hutterite story:

Several years ago, after a conference in South Dakota, a number of ministers decided to visit a nearby Hutterite Bruderhof, the oldest one in the United States, and I was invited to joint this group. We were cordially received and shown around and then the elders were ready to discuss their way of life. One of the very first questions the ministers asked was this: "What do you people teach regarding salvation?" Thereupon the very intelligent brother, who had very likely not anticipated this question, paused a moment and then said quietly, but with great assurance: "If we live in obedience to God's commandments, we are certain of being in God's gracious hands; we do not worry further about our salvation. Rather, we try to walk the narrow path in the fear of the Lord. We fight sin and practice brotherly love. How then can redemption be lacking?" The reply was as simple as it was authentic. Now it was the minsters, trained in conventional theology, who were surprised, and even a bit shocked. They had not anticipated such an answer.

The Hutterite brother had a calm assurance (small "a") which dwarfed the "Assurance" of the visiting ministers.

This reminds me of another story -

There is a story of three men who applied for the job of driving a stagecoach for a transportation company. The person to get the job would be one who could drive over high, dangerous, and steep mountain roads. When asked how well he could drive, the first one replied, “I am a good, experienced driver. I can drive so close to the edge of the steep mountain that the tire of the stagecoach will skirt the edge and never go off.”

“That is good driving,” said the employer.

The second man boasted, “Oh, I can do better than that. I can drive so accurately that the tire of the vehicle will lap over, half of the tire on the edge of the steep mountain, and the other half in the air over the edge.”

The employer wondered what the third man could offer, and was surprised and pleased to hear, “Well, sir, I can keep just as far away from the edge as possible.” It is needless to ask which of the men got the job.

We must be like the third driver and wisely choose to avoid danger. Danger in the spiritual sense is when you find yourself flirting with sin or wanting to see how far you can go before it’s considered breaking a commandment. These are examples of living on the edge spiritually. One step too far could destroy you. Is gambling with your eternal salvation really worth the risk?

[Ernie]

Curious - have you ever looked into the OSAS arguments as presented with scriptures as in this link I gave? In my experience I had not and grew up believing there were all kinds of things I could do that could cause me to lose my salvation. My salvation was very dependent on my performance and I lived in considerable fear that should I die with some unconfessed sin in my life that I would go to hell. Totally eternally insecure. Just saying whatever you chose to believe, I recommend you consider how the scriptures say we are secure in Him.

Thanks for asking. I have looked into them, yes. Long and hard. I actually attended both Reformed and Baptist churches regularly during some of my younger years, and ultimately my studies brought me to several distinct conclusions, including the following:

A. I can be absolutely assured that I am in Christ.

B. In my experience, OSAS is rarely, if ever, ultimately divorced from the proposed soteriology of Augustinian Calvinism (regardless whether one leans toward single or double predestination).

C. I find OSAS (and several of the basic aspects of Augustinian/Calvinistic soteriology in general) to be at odds with a coherent reading of Scriptural soteriology and the revelation of God as Creator/Savior as revealed throughout the Scriptures.
D. There is an equally unScriptural lack of assurance among many of the Anabaptists with who I have chosen to affiliate.

E. There is often an emphasis upon (and appreciation for) the Sovereignty of God among proponents of proponents of OSAS that is sorely lacking among contemporary Christians group such as the Anabaptists, leading to or influencing the lack of assurance mentioned in D.
F. There is often an emphasis upon (and appreciation for) man's free will/ability among most historic and contemporary Anabaptists to choose to engage with the Creator/Savior in a voluntary relationship (engaged by both parties).

But neither D. nor F. seem to be remedied by capitulating to a OSAS premise that generally stems from the soteriological proposals of Augustinian Calvinism, ihmo...

All that to say, yes, I have looked into the OSAS arguments, and I have come away not only unconvinced, but even more in awe that our Creator would continually pursue and extend so much grace to men in spite of their frailty and proclivities to turn from Him. Do I live in fear of "losing" my salvation or "falling away" - absolutely not, I know Him and His grace, and there is both joy and assurance in my walk! But neither does that assurance lead me to read the Scriptures through a OSAS lens, with its required caveat that anyone who seems to have turned away could never have been in Christ in the first place... Rather, it leads me (coupled with the prompting of the Holy Spirit) to hold tighter than ever to the Cross and His grace, and to bring my failings and stumbles to Him! As I read the Scriptures, the amazing fact that He hold me securely doesn't create a conflict with the fact that He would still allow me to jump out of the boat if I so choose (for lack of a better analogy).

I can confidently say that after nearly 20 years of marriage, I am equally secure with my relationship with my wife and I have complete faith and assurance she would never leave me or cease to love me, even though it boggles me some days why she puts up with me, but that doesn't mean I couldn't file for divorce from her if I chose to quit investing and growing in my love for her... A bit simplistic, perhaps, but its the only coherent way I've been able to reconcile the security and assurance I have and experience in my walk with Jesus Christ with the Scriptures about security, responsibility, and choice.

In a nutshell, He loves me and I trust Him and love Him in return. That doesn't require a OSAS line where I'm now IN, I'm locked in, and could never get OUT if (God forbid) I were to walk away from Jesus Christ - the Scriptures explicitly demonstrate that men have done so, in spite of the semantical twistings some theologians have engaged in over the years to make them say differently.

This got longer than I intended, but I do want to say that I very much appreciate your testimony of being secure in the Lord, and I'm not looking to start an argument over it; I just don't personally find the Scriptures to support that an assurance of salvation requires an adherence to the OSAS idea, and I have also found that assurance can be taught, even among Anabaptists, without going that route. Just my two cents.

I appreciate your explanation on how you believe. And to be clear I am not a TULIP Calvinist in my belief either. As you indicate there are scriptures that I believe can be read to say that we never lose our ability to become 'unsaved'. And there are scriptures, that I believe, can be read to say that when one is truly born again that they will never make a choice to become 'unsaved'.

I was raised in a very insecure understanding that my salvation had much to do with my sanctification and there were all kinds of failings in my life that would cause me to lose my salvation. It wasn't a matter of me rejecting what Jesus did to save me that I would forfeit my salvation but rather my living would not be perfect enough to ultimately be saved. It seems to me the more 'conservative' Christian groups tend to believe their salvation is more dependent on them than it is on God.

I also have been around those who appeared in many ways to live like they really had been born again. They went to church faithfully as expected and acted in a way that was expected at least enough to not be kicked out of the church. However, at some point they walked away from their religious ways and it was not a period of backsliding, where they later returned to their religious ways, but rather they walked away from their beliefs about Jesus and what He did to save us.

So, where they truly born again and had received the gift of eternal life that they could give back if they changed their mind ? Or would a person born from above, although they may wander like some sheep do (me included), would be found by the Shepherd and brought back to the fellowship of the fold ? Basically I think this is where we see differently.

I believe one of the misconceptions about the doctrine of OSAS is that it will lead to “carnal Christians” who believe that since they are eternally secure they can live whatever licentious lifestyle they wish and still be saved. And this may be the case for some but I believe they misunderstand what being saved is about. When one is saved/born again they receive a new spiritual heart and can never be 'unborn'.

Well, I guess we could throw scriptures back and forth on this til the cows come home. My father, saved in Pentecostalism and his best friend, a Plymouth Brethren disagreed on OSAS and it was an area they often challenged each other about in a loving brotherly way. Although I said I'm not a 'TULIP' believer, I guess I do have a belief in the 'P'. It is good to hear that you live in the assurance of your salvation. I, too, believe we can know and not just hope that we are saved should we die today and we can get on with living as saved people.

[Ernie]

We could think of it this way...

Some people are saved and know it.
Some people are saved and don't know it.
Some people are lost and know it.
Some people are lost and don't know it.

The last group above includes those who have not heard/understood, as well as those who think they are saved, but aren't.

The following drills down a bit deeper...

Some people who think they are saved, are indeed saved.
Some people who think they are not saved, are indeed saved.
Some people who think they are not saved, are not saved.
Some people who think they are saved, are not saved.

Some time ago three men participated in a colloquy at Faith Builders on "An Anabaptist Understanding of Salvation.
Milo Zehr focused on soteriology that unpacked the work of God in the heart of a true born-again believer as compared with the Protestant view of salvation.
Richard Herr presented a view of salvation that many Evangelicals would agree with.
David Bercot presented an early church view of salvation that was commonly affirmed by early Anabaptists.

As could be expected, Anabaptists in attendance who had been "enlightened" by the Protestant view of salvation, liked what Herr had to say. And for the most part appreciated with Zehr had to say. They did not like what Bercot had to say, but as Bercot pointed out, Herr presented a Protestant view of salvation that most Protestants would agree with, even though the colloquy was titled, "An Anabaptist View of Salvation."

Another interesting but important anecdote from the meeting that pertains to what Heirbyadoption writes above...
The panel discussion leader asked the three men how they would counsel someone who struggled with assurance of salvation.
Zehr explained how he would go about it. Herr explained how he would go about it. Bercot said something like this...

"This may be hard for you to believe but I have never met anyone who struggled with assurance of salvation or even known of anyone who does. Where I come from in Texas, nearly everybody is sure they are saved, including bumper stickers such as, 'In case of rapture the driver of this car will be unmanned.' I'm down there in Texas trying to get people to question their salvation. Since coming to my present belief about salvation, I have been in the frame of mind of asking myself, 'Am I saved?' "
(This was 25 years ago and in recent years Bercot and I have been friends. I don't think he spends a lot of time thinking about his salvation at this point, and I think he has a humble confidence that he is walking with the Lord.)

The thing I took away from this weekend was...
No matter what we believe, congregants are going to come to some conclusion about their relationship with God.
If a congregation has too many people questioning their salvation, there is something wrong with the teaching.
The same thing is true if a congregation has people who are living in sin, yet everybody in the congregation is sure that they are all saved.

[NedFlanders]

My experience is that people that talk about whether they are saved or not are less likely to focus on their relationship with God and being in Christ. And when asked if they are in Christ the answer can be mixed - some how they separate the two- which makes me question their salvation altogether. Not that I call them unsaved but look for an opportunity to get them to see the kingdom of God and seeking the will of the Lord (not for salvation but out of the deep gratitude of being saved by His grace.)