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Sudsy wrote:

silentreader wrote:
I'm sorry, I guess I don't understand your reasoning.

I'm sorry I guess I answered your last question as if it referred to whether the church after this experience obtained the fear of the Lord and my guess is the great fear the church had was a fear of how the apostles might use their God given power.

Now regarding A&S lacking the fear of the Lord - They probably did have an immature fear of the Lord (being young converts) if this fear means a "filial fear," like a child's fear of offending his father. As we grow in our relationship with God we are more aware of what God views as sin.

Continuing on -

I think there is a side of the fear of the Lord that is about respect and awe of God being our Father and we don't want to offend such a loving Father by disobedience. Doing or thinking something that would be an offense to God. And there also seems to be a side of the fear of the Lord where we know God's love for us includes discipline and we are aware that we could be punished or allowed to suffer for our wrong doings to teach us obedience.

Do you and others agree or not with this statement above ?

I'm probably not Anabaptist enough in some of my thinking to give a representative answer but...
I think there is a 'healthy' fear of the Lord, which I had alluded to when I expressed my personal application re the Philippians passage earlier in this thread. In my mind this involves being aware of who God is, what He is done for me, what He is doing for me, His supreme Holiness, and His desire to fashion me into a vessel fitted for His use. I don't feel that there is any negative aspect to this fear, except for one thing, I think part of this healthy fear is a fear for the fate of those who are lost. I do not consider fear of discipline to be a part of this healthy fear.
I believe God is merciful, loving, and just. If I need His discipline, He will deal with me in that way, and when I accept that discipline in a submissive way, I will grow spiritually, and be better off than before. And my experience will refine my healthy fear of the Lord.
If I would wilfully turn my back on Him, then I'd experience a different kind of fear, a 'fearful looking for of judgement'.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" though an OT expression, is, I believe a 'healthy' fear, leading to positive outcomes.
Healthy fear of the Lord strengthens us spiritually.

The other kind of fear, often about not being good enough, will grind us down.
I know I'm not good enough, but the Lord is refining me into something that is as yet unknown, and I do not need to have a negative fear of His hand on my life.

silentreader wrote: I'm probably not Anabaptist enough in some of my thinking to give a representative answer but...
I think there is a 'healthy' fear of the Lord, which I had alluded to when I expressed my personal application re the Philippians passage earlier in this thread. In my mind this involves being aware of who God is, what He is done for me, what He is doing for me, His supreme Holiness, and His desire to fashion me into a vessel fitted for His use. I don't feel that there is any negative aspect to this fear, except for one thing, I think part of this healthy fear is a fear for the fate of those who are lost. I do not consider fear of discipline to be a part of this healthy fear.
I believe God is merciful, loving, and just. If I need His discipline, He will deal with me in that way, and when I accept that discipline in a submissive way, I will grow spiritually, and be better off than before. And my experience will refine my healthy fear of the Lord.
If I would wilfully turn my back on Him, then I'd experience a different kind of fear, a 'fearful looking for of judgement'.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" though an OT expression, is, I believe a 'healthy' fear, leading to positive outcomes.
Healthy fear of the Lord strengthens us spiritually.

The other kind of fear, often about not being good enough, will grind us down.
I know I'm not good enough, but the Lord is refining me into something that is as yet unknown, and I do not need to have a negative fear of His hand on my life.

Well put, imo !!! I especially like the attitude about knowing any of God's discipline is ultimately for our good.
It so agrees with this scipture in my mind-
[bible]1 john 4,18 [/bible]

So, using your description here, does anyone have a problem with this understanding.

When thinking of the parable of the unforgiving servant, I think about how an appropriate fear of God's wrath is important. He was turned over to the tormentors, and would not be released until he paid the very last penny.

Annanias and Sapphira lacked a fear of the Lord, and ended up struck down dead. God sees fit to show us a lot more mercy than we deserve, and forgives us when we are unforgiving, when we lie, when we try to look pious but are instead whited sepulchres.

But part of an appropriate fear of the Lord, to me, is to recognise that a just creator would indeed pour out wrath and vengeance on sinners who would abuse his creation as the unforgiving sinner did, or who would make a show of religious piety whilst being liars and hypocrites as Annanias and Sapphira did.

When I am tempted to be angry at someone who has wronged me or owed me - I remember the debts I have been forgiven - and I do fear the Lord.

The fear as in "fear of the the Lord" can be considered a healthy respect or honour that comes from knowing who God is and that He does keep his word. So I very much agree with SilentReader and Josh in their preceding posts.

Open to more input and just want to thank everyone that posted todate. I'm thinking the story Josh pointed to regarding the unforgiving servant might make a good thread. Especially the end of this story- "So likewise shall My heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother’s trespasses.”

Sudsy wrote:Open to more input and just want to thank everyone that posted todate. I'm thinking the story Josh pointed to regarding the unforgiving servant might make a good thread. Especially the end of this story- "So likewise shall My heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother’s trespasses.”

A real challenge is forgiving the trespasses whilst also not openly associating with a brother fallen into adultery, immorality, lying, etc.

It's really tempting to let anger and resentment seep in as you watch him succumb to sin. But we are called to do something better than that. How does one shun and love at the same time?

Josh wrote:

Sudsy wrote:Open to more input and just want to thank everyone that posted todate. I'm thinking the story Josh pointed to regarding the unforgiving servant might make a good thread. Especially the end of this story- "So likewise shall My heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother’s trespasses.”

A real challenge is forgiving the trespasses whilst also not openly associating with a brother fallen into adultery, immorality, lying, etc.

It's really tempting to let anger and resentment seep in as you watch him succumb to sin. But we are called to do something better than that. How does one shun and love at the same time?

Yes, taking the narrow way is challenging. All sin is against God and needs God's forgiveness. Some sins are also against a brother. When we are personally sinned against, we need God's enabling power to forgive and there is a scriptural pattern for this.

I think if a brother falls into sin and has no intention to repent, if it is our belief that we should shun him, we should first explain to him from the scripture why we believe we need to dis-associate and pray for him until that sin is repented. He should know that this is an act of love according to the scripture regardless of how he responds to that explanation. He may already know this is what you should do but doing it anyway I think is a loving act if done with sadness that this is interfering in a brotherly relationship.

Josh wrote:

Sudsy wrote:Open to more input and just want to thank everyone that posted todate. I'm thinking the story Josh pointed to regarding the unforgiving servant might make a good thread. Especially the end of this story- "So likewise shall My heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother’s trespasses.”

A real challenge is forgiving the trespasses whilst also not openly associating with a brother fallen into adultery, immorality, lying, etc.

It's really tempting to let anger and resentment seep in as you watch him succumb to sin. But we are called to do something better than that. How does one shun and love at the same time?

In her dissertation on Gelassenheit, Sandra Cronk stated "Discipline is the highest form of love we can show."

Hats Off wrote:In her dissertation on Gelassenheit, Sandra Cronk stated "Discipline is the highest form of love we can show."

Yes, it is - provided it is actually done with a spirit of love.

Incidentally, some Anabaptist groups really do get discipline right. I think that, over time, it leads to a strong atmosphere and feeling of love both within a family and within a brotherhood.

I think a fear of the Lord can be cultivated in the awareness and acknowledgement that we are mere humans interacting with the one true God of the universe. Too often we make this casual. When we think about just who we are dealing with, how can we not have humility and reverence?