What is the fear of the Lord ?

General Christian Theology
silentreader
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Re: What is the fear of the Lord ?

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote: Actually, I thought of Ananias and Sapphira this afternoon.
Acts 5:11English Standard Version (ESV)
11 And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things.
So, are you saying here that the 'fear of the Lord' is the same as or includes fearing the judgment of God on a follower of Christ ? It is not just a response of awe and wonder. Peter says when they lied to Peter they were lieing to God as all sin is against God.

This reminds me of this verse in 1 Cor 11:30 which says - 'That is why many of you are weak and sick and some have even died.' And the issue here was looking down on the poor in their congregation. Not treating them with brotherly love.

Then does this indicate that at some point God does not tolerate our willful sinning and could allow sickness or even death to come our way ?
What fear do you think the whole church had?
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Sudsy
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Re: What is the fear of the Lord ?

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote: Actually, I thought of Ananias and Sapphira this afternoon.
So, are you saying here that the 'fear of the Lord' is the same as or includes fearing the judgment of God on a follower of Christ ? It is not just a response of awe and wonder. Peter says when they lied to Peter they were lieing to God as all sin is against God.

This reminds me of this verse in 1 Cor 11:30 which says - 'That is why many of you are weak and sick and some have even died.' And the issue here was looking down on the poor in their congregation. Not treating them with brotherly love.

Then does this indicate that at some point God does not tolerate our willful sinning and could allow sickness or even death to come our way ?
What fear do you think the whole church had?
I think the fear they had was in regard to the authority the apostles had. Authority to speak and use supernatural power to take the life of one who sins against God. It also could have especially pointed out the sin of hypocrisy in the church which God hates. I'm thankful that God has not slain me for my moments of hypocrisy yet I do believe I have been discipline, sometimes quite severely, for certain sinning. I have taken the hard road at times in learning obedience and sometimes still do.
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silentreader
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Re: What is the fear of the Lord ?

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
So, are you saying here that the 'fear of the Lord' is the same as or includes fearing the judgment of God on a follower of Christ ? It is not just a response of awe and wonder. Peter says when they lied to Peter they were lieing to God as all sin is against God.

This reminds me of this verse in 1 Cor 11:30 which says - 'That is why many of you are weak and sick and some have even died.' And the issue here was looking down on the poor in their congregation. Not treating them with brotherly love.

Then does this indicate that at some point God does not tolerate our willful sinning and could allow sickness or even death to come our way ?
What fear do you think the whole church had?
I think the fear they had was in regard to the authority the apostles had. Authority to speak and use supernatural power to take the life of one who sins against God. It also could have especially pointed out the sin of hypocrisy in the church which God hates. I'm thankful that God has not slain me for my moments of hypocrisy yet I do believe I have been discipline, sometimes quite severely, for certain sinning. I have taken the hard road at times in learning obedience and sometimes still do.
Matthew 10:28English Standard Version (ESV)
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
?
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Sudsy
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Re: What is the fear of the Lord ?

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote:
Matthew 10:28English Standard Version (ESV)
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
?
Matthew 10:31 same text - Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

?
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JimFoxvog
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Re: What is the fear of the Lord ?

Post by JimFoxvog »

Sudsy wrote: So, what do you think of these translations or paraphrases on 4b -

But you forgive us, so that we should stand in awe of you. - Good News Translation
But with you there is forgiveness, so that we can, with reverence, serve you. - NIV
But you are willing to forgive, so that you might be honored. -New English Translation
But you forgive! What an awesome thing this is! - The Living Bible
These translations go along with what I have mostly been taught. I prefer them. But I wonder if we are making our interpretations in ways that are comforting and non-threatening.
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silentreader
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Re: What is the fear of the Lord ?

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Matthew 10:28English Standard Version (ESV)
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
?
Matthew 10:31 same text - Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

?
And they are reconcilable.
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silentreader
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Re: What is the fear of the Lord ?

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
So, are you saying here that the 'fear of the Lord' is the same as or includes fearing the judgment of God on a follower of Christ ? It is not just a response of awe and wonder. Peter says when they lied to Peter they were lieing to God as all sin is against God.

This reminds me of this verse in 1 Cor 11:30 which says - 'That is why many of you are weak and sick and some have even died.' And the issue here was looking down on the poor in their congregation. Not treating them with brotherly love.

Then does this indicate that at some point God does not tolerate our willful sinning and could allow sickness or even death to come our way ?
What fear do you think the whole church had?
I think the fear they had was in regard to the authority the apostles had. Authority to speak and use supernatural power to take the life of one who sins against God. It also could have especially pointed out the sin of hypocrisy in the church which God hates. I'm thankful that God has not slain me for my moments of hypocrisy yet I do believe I have been discipline, sometimes quite severely, for certain sinning. I have taken the hard road at times in learning obedience and sometimes still do.
The church was probably aware of where that power and authority came from, or did they think the disciples did it of their own volition?
Acts 5:3English Standard Version (ESV)
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
English Standard Version (ESV)

Acts 5:9English Standard Version (ESV)
9 But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”


Would this not suggest that Ananias and Sapphira lacked a fear of the Lord?
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Sudsy
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Re: What is the fear of the Lord ?

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote: The church was probably aware of where that power and authority came from, or did they think the disciples did it of their own volition?

Don't really know but I think it is possible that the church could have had a view that only good things (healings, casting out devils) could come from their authority and this showed them that this power given them could see beyond the external into the very motives of man. If I was in the church at that time I would be very aware, after seeing these deaths, that I could perhaps fool other believers in my hypocrisy but I would not get away with it as both God and the Spirit lead apostles could see what was in my heart. God looks upon the heart. Jesus said that we can commit adultery and murder in our hearts. God could slay any of us for our sinning and this, seems to me, to be a lesson God wanted to make early in the church. Don't think we can put one over on God.
Acts 5:3English Standard Version (ESV)
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
English Standard Version (ESV)

Acts 5:9English Standard Version (ESV)
9 But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”


Would this not suggest that Ananias and Sapphira lacked a fear of the Lord?
Not sure. I think there was a fear of the power the apostles had and how it could be used. Verse 13 continues - 'The other believers didn’t dare join them, though, but all had the highest regard for them. ' Why didn't they join the apostles in Solomon's Hall ? Possibly because they were afraid that Peter might strike them dead also for their sinning.
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silentreader
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Re: What is the fear of the Lord ?

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote: The church was probably aware of where that power and authority came from, or did they think the disciples did it of their own volition?

Don't really know but I think it is possible that the church could have had a view that only good things (healings, casting out devils) could come from their authority and this showed them that this power given them could see beyond the external into the very motives of man. If I was in the church at that time I would be very aware, after seeing these deaths, that I could perhaps fool other believers in my hypocrisy but I would not get away with it as both God and the Spirit lead apostles could see what was in my heart. God looks upon the heart. Jesus said that we can commit adultery and murder in our hearts. God could slay any of us for our sinning and this, seems to me, to be a lesson God wanted to make early in the church. Don't think we can put one over on God.
Acts 5:3English Standard Version (ESV)
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
English Standard Version (ESV)

Acts 5:9English Standard Version (ESV)
9 But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”


Would this not suggest that Ananias and Sapphira lacked a fear of the Lord?
Not sure. I think there was a fear of the power the apostles had and how it could be used. Verse 13 continues - 'The other believers didn’t dare join them, though, but all had the highest regard for them. ' Why didn't they join the apostles in Solomon's Hall ? Possibly because they were afraid that Peter might strike them dead also for their sinning.
I'm sorry, I guess I don't understand your reasoning.
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Sudsy
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Re: What is the fear of the Lord ?

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote:
I'm sorry, I guess I don't understand your reasoning.
I'm sorry I guess I answered your last question as if it referred to whether the church after this experience obtained the fear of the Lord and my guess is the great fear the church had was a fear of how the apostles might use their God given power.

Now regarding A&S lacking the fear of the Lord - They probably did have an immature fear of the Lord (being young converts) if this fear means a "filial fear," like a child's fear of offending his father. As we grow in our relationship with God we are more aware of what God views as sin.

Continuing on -

I think there is a side of the fear of the Lord that is about respect and awe of God being our Father and we don't want to offend such a loving Father by disobedience. Doing or thinking something that would be an offense to God. And there also seems to be a side of the fear of the Lord where we know God's love for us includes discipline and we are aware that we could be punished or allowed to suffer for our wrong doings to teach us obedience.

Do you and others agree or not with this statement above ?
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