What is Worldliness ?

[Sudsy]

Ernie previously provided this verse - For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

A question on the underlined - Is there anything a believer can take pride in or is all pride worldliness ?

God especially says He hates pride and arrogance.

I'm thinking of things like being proud of - members of our family, being an Anabaptist or Evangelical, achieving a level of education, anything we accomplished, how we live holy lives, not being like others.

[Ernie]

Desire is good, but it can become twisted and then it becomes lust. Then it is bad.

If by proud you mean pleased then I think that is fine. Anything beyond pleased is ungodly I would think. (Of course I am using English words for what I assume the Hebrew and Greek meant.) I think a lot of people think pride is a good thing instead of a bad thing and that is a real problem.

Sometimes I hear people from boy's camps, schools, etc. talking about taking pride in one's work helps to build good self-esteem. I think all of that is of the world, unless it is the kind of pleasure that God has with his children.

Instead of "being ourselves" we should be the people God wants us to be.
Instead of "taking pride in our work" I think it would be better to thank God for the skills he has given us and for the ability to develop our talents and use them for his glory.

[Sudsy]

Desire is good, but it can become twisted and then it becomes lust. Then it is bad.

If by proud you mean pleased then I think that is fine. Anything beyond pleased is ungodly I would think. (Of course I am using English words for what I assume the Hebrew and Greek meant.) I think a lot of people think pride is a good thing instead of a bad thing and that is a real problem.

Sometimes I hear people from boy's camps, schools, etc. talking about taking pride in one's work helps to build good self-esteem. I think all of that is of the world, unless it is the kind of pleasure that God has with his children.

Instead of "being ourselves" we should be the people God wants us to be.
Instead of "taking pride in our work" I think it would be better to thank God for the skills he has given us and for the ability to develop our talents and use them for his glory.

I think when one says they are proud of their child they often mean they are pleased with their child or thankful regarding their child. These would be better words, imo. However, if they say they are proud and are trying to impress others regarding their child, then I think this would be sin.

Isn't any comparison to others where we exalt ourselves or our group over others, the sin of pride ? The word arrogance sort of describes this kind of attitude.

Could it be said that pride is essentially self-worship ?

[Valerie]

Desire is good, but it can become twisted and then it becomes lust. Then it is bad.

If by proud you mean pleased then I think that is fine. Anything beyond pleased is ungodly I would think. (Of course I am using English words for what I assume the Hebrew and Greek meant.) I think a lot of people think pride is a good thing instead of a bad thing and that is a real problem.

Sometimes I hear people from boy's camps, schools, etc. talking about taking pride in one's work helps to build good self-esteem. I think all of that is of the world, unless it is the kind of pleasure that God has with his children.

Instead of "being ourselves" we should be the people God wants us to be.
Instead of "taking pride in our work" I think it would be better to thank God for the skills he has given us and for the ability to develop our talents and use them for his glory.

Agree 100% with this- had gleaned this perspective from the Anabaptists & appreciate it, & have tried to 'lovingly' share it.

[Bootstrap]

Useful discussion on pride. I want to read a few things on the meaning of the Greek before I respond to that part. A few thoughts on the rest ...

Instead of "being ourselves" we should be the people God wants us to be.

Instead of "finding myself", I need to seek God. If I learn to do what is good and love and serve others, I do not need to create a self-image that I can advertise in social media. But I am still an individual, and I cannot be good or serve in the same way that my wife would, the organs of this body are different, with distinct gifts and weaknesses.

Sometimes I hear people from boy's camps, schools, etc. talking about taking pride in one's work helps to build good self-esteem. I think all of that is of the world, unless it is the kind of pleasure that God has with his children.

Self-esteem is an odd word. I like the word self-respect. I respect people who serve God, love others, speak the truth, take responsibility, do what they promise, etc. I want to be the kind of person I respect. If you set your heart on doing those things, and catch yourself doing what is right, that builds self-respect. Taking pleasure in that is also good. But in either case, I think Corrie Ten Boom has it right - when you see anything good about yourself, go to God in prayer, thank him for that and give him the credit. Don't think of it as your own accomplishment. And don't think of it as your status. It is a good gift from our gracious father.

Instead of "taking pride in our work" I think it would be better to thank God for the skills he has given us and for the ability to develop our talents and use them for his glory.

Ecclesiastes is useful here. All of our work is a puff of wind, here today and gone tomorrow. But we should take pleasure in the work God gives us, and give thanks for it.

But I'm not sure what the difference is between pride and boasting, a word that Paul uses:

4 But each person should examine his own work, and then he will have a reason for boasting in himself alone, and not in respect to someone else. 5 For each person will have to carry his own load.

That's something I would like to study - what Paul says about pride versus boasting. We could have several profitable threads out of these questions.

Isn't any comparison to others where we exalt ourselves or our group over others, the sin of pride? The word arrogance sort of describes this kind of attitude.

Could it be said that pride is essentially self-worship ?

And from another thread:

12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

I don't know how the Lord views all this- sometimes I think He may see a place for it but perhaps sometimes grieved by it, but I am not sure.

There's a paradox in 2 Corinthians 10:12. In the same verse that says he does not dare compare himself to others, he does just that. I am not at all sure I have a grasp on what Paul says about pride, humility, and boasting, or exactly what the New Testament teaches - on the whole - about comparing ourselves to others. But I do see that Paul says he boasts about some things, and compares himself favorably in others. I also see strong warnings against pride and comparing ourselves to others. I'd like to understand how this all fits together better than I do now.

[Sudsy]

If the biblical word boasting refers to praising then if we are boasting/praising God or boasting/praising the commendable qualities of others, then this sort of boasting would be OK. But if applied to oneself, then it is improper.

I think we can be guilty of the sin of pride, not just in ourselves directly, but indirectly by association. For instance, I could say the church I attend is more liberated than others who are more conservative and be boasting in a way that really is praising myself though indirectly. And personally, I may not really be that liberated but I am projecting that I am and so I am not only guity of pride but also deceit.

I especially think this needs repeating from bootstraps post -

I think Corrie Ten Boom has it right - when you see anything good about yourself, go to God in prayer, thank him for that and give him the credit. Don't think of it as your own accomplishment. And don't think of it as your status. It is a good gift from our gracious father.

[Josh]

One way to avoid pride is to choose to speak highly of others, particularly people who aren't your own family / church / etc.:

For example, speak highly of how someone you know has served others, taught singing classes, etc.

[MaxPC]

Desire is good, but it can become twisted and then it becomes lust. Then it is bad.

If by proud you mean pleased then I think that is fine. Anything beyond pleased is ungodly I would think. (Of course I am using English words for what I assume the Hebrew and Greek meant.) I think a lot of people think pride is a good thing instead of a bad thing and that is a real problem.

Sometimes I hear people from boy's camps, schools, etc. talking about taking pride in one's work helps to build good self-esteem. I think all of that is of the world, unless it is the kind of pleasure that God has with his children.

Instead of "being ourselves" we should be the people God wants us to be.
Instead of "taking pride in our work" I think it would be better to thank God for the skills he has given us and for the ability to develop our talents and use them for his glory.

Amen.
As someone else mentioned too, the word "pride" is often used in place of other words. I'm glad to see that pointed out to help unravel some of the verbal miscues that sometimes occur.

[Sudsy]

One way to avoid pride is to choose to speak highly of others, particularly people who aren't your own family / church / etc.:

For example, speak highly of how someone you know has served others, taught singing classes, etc.

And I think we can do that and continue to give God the glory by praising them for being godly, for being Christlike, by commending them for God’s glory, applauding them for doing something good in the strength God supplies.

I tried to do that last week in an e:mail to our teaching pastor telling him how we were marvelling how God had gifted him in prophecy and teaching and how these gifts were trully edifying as the Spirit leads and empowers him to share these gifts with the local body of believers.

[Neto]

The proper kind of pride is comparing ones self with ones self, but never comparing ones self with another.