What is Worldliness ?

General Christian Theology
Sudsy
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Re: What is Worldliness ?

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If deciding what is worldly and what is not worldly is best determined by a community of believers rather than individual discerment, then why do various community groups disagree with one another on what is acting and/or looking worldly ? If it is spirititual guidance and we allow that groups/communities will differ in this guidance then should it not be accepted within the community as an individual spiritual growth issue of becoming spiritually mature ?

Doesn't Paul in Romans 14 leave room for individuals deciding on what glorifies God and live by their own personal convictions as long as they are not sinning and they don't do things where a weaker brother might observe them and it would cause him to fall ? Is Paul saying they should not be judging one another, outside of deliberate unrepentant sinning, but be concerned about each other's growth and encourage a personal walk in the Spirit to become less and less worldly and more and more Christlike ?
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lesterb
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Re: What is Worldliness ?

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[bible]pro 11,14[/bible]
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Sudsy
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Re: What is Worldliness ?

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lesterb wrote:[bible]pro 11,14[/bible]
Amen.
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betterpromises2
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Re: What is Worldliness ?

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It's not a new idea that a person can appear spiritual but that may or may not be who the person really is, and the opposite can be true as well. For me the/a self-examination question is: am I seeking first the Kingdom of Christ, or am I seeking first the kingdom of this world? ("first" is the key word I believe)

My experience is that as I continue to grow in the Lord, he opens my understanding more and more to the big and little ways I align myself with one kingdom or the other, even in the "little" decisions I make each day- or even each hour.

It took me long time to really start to grasp and experience the sanctification process, and also to learn about his power instead of my feeble and inconsistent self-efforts to obey and follow. And now he is also working to show me more about what faith really is- and how weak my faith has been in the past, which I haven't understood.

Chris.
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Josh
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Re: What is Worldliness ?

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Sudsy wrote:If deciding what is worldly and what is not worldly is best determined by a community of believers rather than individual discerment, then why do various community groups disagree with one another on what is acting and/or looking worldly ? If it is spirititual guidance and we allow that groups/communities will differ in this guidance then should it not be accepted within the community as an individual spiritual growth issue of becoming spiritually mature ?
Because the people in each group are still prone to pride, arrogance, vanity, and seeking to wash the outside of the cup when the inside is filthy.

From a more positive point of view, each group is a different culture adapting to challenges in a different time and place. At the turn of the century, face cards were strongly associated with either fortune-telling or gambling. In 2017, face cards barely have any association with fortune-telling or gambling. It could very well be that a sincere believer avoided face cards a century ago, and that a sincere believer would not avoid them now.
Doesn't Paul in Romans 14 leave room for individuals deciding on what glorifies God and live by their own personal convictions as long as they are not sinning and they don't do things where a weaker brother might observe them and it would cause him to fall ? Is Paul saying they should not be judging one another, outside of deliberate unrepentant sinning, but be concerned about each other's growth and encourage a personal walk in the Spirit to become less and less worldly and more and more Christlike ?
I think that's a fairly modern perspective that thinks that one's personal opinions somehow have relevant to what the Bible teaches and what God teaches.

The keyword here is when you used deliberate unrepentant sinning. That's still a matter of the group deciding what this is. A lot of modern-day Christians don't think homosexual relationships and activities are sinful at all. Where is the room for their individual conscience per Romans 14?
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Sudsy
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Re: What is Worldliness ?

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Josh wrote:
Sudsy wrote:If deciding what is worldly and what is not worldly is best determined by a community of believers rather than individual discerment, then why do various community groups disagree with one another on what is acting and/or looking worldly ? If it is spirititual guidance and we allow that groups/communities will differ in this guidance then should it not be accepted within the community as an individual spiritual growth issue of becoming spiritually mature ?
Because the people in each group are still prone to pride, arrogance, vanity, and seeking to wash the outside of the cup when the inside is filthy.

From a more positive point of view, each group is a different culture adapting to challenges in a different time and place. At the turn of the century, face cards were strongly associated with either fortune-telling or gambling. In 2017, face cards barely have any association with fortune-telling or gambling. It could very well be that a sincere believer avoided face cards a century ago, and that a sincere believer would not avoid them now.
Doesn't Paul in Romans 14 leave room for individuals deciding on what glorifies God and live by their own personal convictions as long as they are not sinning and they don't do things where a weaker brother might observe them and it would cause him to fall ? Is Paul saying they should not be judging one another, outside of deliberate unrepentant sinning, but be concerned about each other's growth and encourage a personal walk in the Spirit to become less and less worldly and more and more Christlike ?
I think that's a fairly modern perspective that thinks that one's personal opinions somehow have relevant to what the Bible teaches and what God teaches.

The keyword here is when you used deliberate unrepentant sinning. That's still a matter of the group deciding what this is. A lot of modern-day Christians don't think homosexual relationships and activities are sinful at all. Where is the room for their individual conscience per Romans 14?
My understanding of Romans 14 is the point being made is that whatever we do is unto the Lord as He alone is and will be our final judge. So, if we view someone as 'weak in the faith' (immature spiritually) Paul says not to argue with them regarding their beliefs that reflect their immaturity. Paul says there is no room for criticizing or looking down upon other believers who have different convictions than ourselves. So I don't see anywhere that church leadership then should establish norms of behaviour that the leaders themselves are convicted as how everyone must follow Jesus.

I agree the problem is defining what are sinful ways that must be dealt with by the church leaders. As in 1 Cor 5, that situation of sinning was obvious, even to outsiders. And active homosexuality is also quite well identified as sinning. But areas like not wearing a head covering or any drinking of alcohol or the size of the brim of a hat or where the line is on being modest, etc, etc are they sins that will themselves forfeit our salvation ?

Was 'The Church', meant to look outwardly identical in how they followed Christ ? Romans 14 seems to allow for our individual growth to occur without being judged by other believers. Would Jesus, for instance, restrict taking communion if say, a woman was not wearing a head covering ? Should holiness be taught ? For sure. But doesn't Romans 14 allow the Holy Spirit to work out sanctification in each person's life in His way and in His timing ?

To me, it is about whether or not sanctification is an area to be encouraged rather than forced. Since I think our walk with God is all about choices we make, that we will give account for own individual lives, sanctification is to be encouraged/admonished but left to be choices we make in how we follow Christ. The Holy Spirit does not force us to do anything so should we not take the same approach in the local church ? The Mennonite Brethren church I attend takes that approach. If anything, we might see less worldliness if holiness and being ambassadors and walking in the Spirit was stressed more.

What I recall in my past, quite restricted norms in Pentecostalism, was certain folk in the church were busy-bodies pointing their finger at how others followed Christ. And these being criticized were slandered and looked down upon. I think Paul was saying in Romans 14 this should not be happening and they should 'knock it off'. This chapter would be a good one for leaders to share with these busy-bodies.
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Sudsy
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Re: What is Worldliness ?

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betterpromises2 wrote:It's not a new idea that a person can appear spiritual but that may or may not be who the person really is, and the opposite can be true as well. For me the/a self-examination question is: am I seeking first the Kingdom of Christ, or am I seeking first the kingdom of this world? ("first" is the key word I believe)

My experience is that as I continue to grow in the Lord, he opens my understanding more and more to the big and little ways I align myself with one kingdom or the other, even in the "little" decisions I make each day- or even each hour.

It took me long time to really start to grasp and experience the sanctification process, and also to learn about his power instead of my feeble and inconsistent self-efforts to obey and follow. And now he is also working to show me more about what faith really is- and how weak my faith has been in the past, which I haven't understood.

Chris.
I really appreciate this post Chris. I was just saying to my wife the other day as how worldly I see myself in what you posted - "the "little" decisions I make each day- or even each hour". It is really a priority issue and one that exposes what is in my heart. And I believe scripture says my heart is changed through the renewing of my mind. Too much worldly junk going in (garbage in / garbage out). [bible]Proverbs 4,23[/bible]
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Re: What is Worldliness ?

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Homosexuality being a sin is not obvious to outsiders and Gentiles in 2017.

Basically, each of us has an extra-biblical standard of what sin is, because the Bible doesn't go into great deal about what sin is. If your perspective is all that matters is a few "great sins" then getting into minutiae about what exactly this Greek word means, what is the context of that passage, etc. becomes important so we can make sure we can get away with as much as possible.

For an idea of what this looks like in 2017, stroll into a mainline Protestant church. The end run is fully embracing whatever the dominant culture says is moral.
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Sudsy
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Re: What is Worldliness ?

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Another area that influences our regard for the temporal over the spiritual/eternal is preaching today that suggests that God in His love for His children wants them to be prosperous in temporal things. The prosperity gospel says financial blessing and physical well-being are always the will of God for us. But Romans 14:17 says the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. A gospel that sees abundant life in Christ being an abundance of health and wealth is something more derived from the OT than NT as far as I can see. Actually, we are guaranteed suffering and persecutions if we are to live a godly life under the New Covenant. And at the same time we will experience many spiritual blessings such as peace that goes beyond understanding and unspeakable joy in the Holy Spirit plus the many spiritual gifts and fruit of the Spirit.

Romans 8:6 - The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.

So, many mega churches constantly preach what the flesh wants to hear. Have you ever seen an age where this scripture is more true - 2 Timothy 4:3 - 'For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.'

Horray for us. We get heaven and escape hell when we die and meanwhile we are promised a successful temporal life here filled with health and wealth. It amazes me that when this isn't occuring for many, how they still cling to that hope. I guess part of that message is 'hold on, your breakthrough is just around the corner. Weeping may endure for a night but joy comes in the morning'. Sadly, that is not the joy that is found in the Kingdom rather it is fleeting happiness as it is based on things that pass away.

I 'm not really preaching to the choir here but it was on my mind when I think of this topic.
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Re: What is Worldliness ?

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Indeed, Sudsy.

I didn't know real freedom in Christ until I realised someday I might be poor the rest of my life, working a job I'm not that good at, with nothing but scorn from my family and with trouble and disharmony at church.

And I realised Jesus would still be with me, and God would take care of my needs - most of all my spiritual need. No longer did my hope need to be in more material things some day.
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