The Thief on the Cross

General Christian Theology
Valerie
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The Thief on the Cross

Post by Valerie »

Luke 23:
39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ,[j] save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord,[k] remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

This passage seems to perplex lots of Christians for various reasons. Why did the criminal (robber/thief) get to go to Paradise on the same day as Jesus?

(I find it interesting the other Gospels do not give this account but instead say that both robbers reviled Jesus - Mark 15:32, Matthew 27:44- and John doesn't mention anything about it at all, and he was an eye witness at the moment this would have happened, isn't that strange? It's kind of a big deal to most of us that Jesus offered that to him.)

Why did Jesus allow this one into Paradise?
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Josh
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Post by Josh »

Jesus likes to show mercy and share good news with the undeserving. It's his nature, and one he wants us to share.
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Valerie
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:Jesus likes to show mercy and share good news with the undeserving. It's his nature, and one he wants us to share.
Amen!
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

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Lets do one simple question... Did Jesus go right to Heaven when He died?

People really nuke this question and they miss that Jesus didn't go into heaven until after rising from the grave. Unless you believe Heaven doesn't have God the Father in it?

I can only conclude that paradise is not Heaven but somewhere else. Clearly a good place...
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Sudsy
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Post by Sudsy »

Soloist wrote:Lets do one simple question... Did Jesus go right to Heaven when He died?

People really nuke this question and they miss that Jesus didn't go into heaven until after rising from the grave. Unless you believe Heaven doesn't have God the Father in it?

I can only conclude that paradise is not Heaven but somewhere else. Clearly a good place...
Some say verse 43 should have read - And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, today I say to you, you will be with Me in Paradise.”
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Valerie
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

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Soloist wrote:Lets do one simple question... Did Jesus go right to Heaven when He died?

People really nuke this question and they miss that Jesus didn't go into heaven until after rising from the grave. Unless you believe Heaven doesn't have God the Father in it?

I can only conclude that paradise is not Heaven but somewhere else. Clearly a good place...
Whose to say that Jesus didn't go to Paradise that day? EITHER Luke misquoted Jesus, or He accompanied the thief on the cross on his journey to Paradise and then descended into Hades where He preached to the spirits there- we cannot be sure-
we only have that one passage.
My question primarily was about why this condemned sinner was able to go to Paradise- easy beliefism? Jesus knows our heart and judges us in ways we typically fall short of in determining who He chooses to be with Him-who are His own- it may be as simple as what the thief confessed and acknowledge, about Him- God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy- sometimes 'we' can be merciless to each other's variety of understandings.

Paradise:
1 Corinthians 12 gives us a glimpse:
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2:7

“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”

and where is the tree of life?


Revelation 22:2-3King James Version (KJV)

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

King James Version (KJV)
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Paul
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Post by Paul »

Valerie wrote:
Whose to say that Jesus didn't go to Paradise that day? EITHER Luke misquoted Jesus, or He accompanied the thief on the cross on his journey to Paradise and then descended into Hades where He preached to the spirits there- we cannot be sure-
we only have that one passage.
I do think Jesus did go to Paradise that day, with the thief on the cross, it's very clear from the passage.

I've recently heard an explanation of these verses, that Christ by the same Spirit that raised Him, once preached to the spirits in prison in the days of Noah. How that preaching looked like I don't know, but Jesus Christ is God so He could've preached before His incarnation. It made sense to me when comparing to other passages like the one on the thief on the cross, any thoughts?

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Post by Valerie »

Paul wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Whose to say that Jesus didn't go to Paradise that day? EITHER Luke misquoted Jesus, or He accompanied the thief on the cross on his journey to Paradise and then descended into Hades where He preached to the spirits there- we cannot be sure-
we only have that one passage.
I do think Jesus did go to Paradise that day, with the thief on the cross, it's very clear from the passage.

I've recently heard an explanation of these verses, that Christ by the same Spirit that raised Him, once preached to the spirits in prison in the days of Noah. How that preaching looked like I don't know, but Jesus Christ is God so He could've preached before His incarnation. It made sense to me when comparing to other passages like the one on the thief on the cross, any thoughts?

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
I had never heard that understanding Paul, that Christ preaching to the spirits in prison before His incarnation- I had understood that this took place between when He died on the Cross and when He rose from the tomb-
In my Orthodox Study Bible, there are so many places in the Old Testament where the footnotes point out when it was the preincarnate Christ, the Word- speaking- It has been a blessing to learn the difference between when it was the Father God, and when it was the Word- in the Old Testament which really helped us understand more.
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

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Valerie wrote:
Whose to say that Jesus didn't go to Paradise that day? EITHER Luke misquoted Jesus, or He accompanied the thief on the cross on his journey to Paradise and then descended into Hades where He preached to the spirits there- we cannot be sure-
we only have that one passage.
I'll point out I never said Jesus did not go to Paradise but rather that Paradise is not Heaven. This assertion is supported by the verse below.
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God
Valerie wrote: My question primarily was about why this condemned sinner was able to go to Paradise- easy beliefism? Jesus knows our heart and judges us in ways we typically fall short of in determining who He chooses to be with Him-who are His own- it may be as simple as what the thief confessed and acknowledge, about Him- God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy- sometimes 'we' can be merciless to each other's variety of understandings.
Some believe that Paradise is possible waiting place for those who died before Jesus as opposed to heaven since it seems unlikely since Jesus had not gone to heaven or the Father was not in heaven, which would make no sense. This depends also on if you believe Jesus telling the story of the rich man and the poor man begging at his gate was a literal example or completely figurative and the account was all made up.

How this all works out for easy believing... I can't say, but I would argue that the average person on death bed who confesses their sin because they know they are about to die had ample chances before almost dying where they said "I care about me more." I have a problem believing that they will not be judged according to their life if they go about it in this matter. The Thief in this story was not expecting forgiveness and access to Heaven but asked to be remembered demonstrating a profound faith and showing that he knew his guilt and that he deserved the lake of fire.
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Paul
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Re: The Thief on the Cross

Post by Paul »

Soloist wrote: I'll point out I never said Jesus did not go to Paradise but rather that Paradise is not Heaven. This assertion is supported by the verse below.
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God
The fact that Jesus would ascend to the Father after His bodily ressurection, doesn't have anything to do with His going to heaven or not before His resurrection. Ofcourse paradise is heaven, and the Lord said that to comfort the thief on the cross. Quite a cruel thing to do, if he would be lost after all.
I've heard your argument once before that the thief supposedly wasn't saved. It is usually people that are strong advocates of work-righteousness that are really in the dark about the grace of God that a sinner is actually saved by faith in Jesus Christ - not by works lest any man should boast - as this thief was.
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