How to know you are born again

General Christian Theology
Valerie
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Valerie »

Regarding Salvation Army Christians- I cannot be the judge of how Christ sees their disobedience to be baptized, He Himself was baptized and again said in Matthew 28:19 to teach all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (or Ghost depending on translation).

In the old testament, God winked at ignorance, could it be He is doing this today with so much error & confusion regarding Scripture interpretation? I don't know how He really views all this, He is just, He is merciful- but to say it's perfectly fine to have denominations that abstain from baptism is not sound doctrine.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,


Here we have Apostle Paul reminding the Christians to hold both 'oral' and 'written' traditions- meaning not everything was written down that they were instructing.
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Sudsy
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote: What stands out the most to me about being born of the Spirit is in my own parents conversion experiences. Where one moment they are heading in a direction controlled by self and the next moment they not only have been changed but there was obviously evidence of this (i.e. delivered immediately from old addictions). Could this have taken place prior to them being born of the Spirit ? I don't think so. Another observation is when some are baptised in water and there is no obvious changes to pursue discipleship. How is this explained ?

Any help with explaining your latest understanding would be appreciated.
To answer your question, I think it is a wonderful miracle what happened with your parents. I hear of this from time to time. I worked in an addictions ministry for several years- it was RARE that it happened like your parents. Most people who had addictions that had converted, still struggled with overcoming their addictions. On occasion we would have someone with a story like your parents. Why does it happen that way for some? I am not sure. Neither am I sure why some people are healed in other infirmities, and others are not.

1 John 1:9(KJV)

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Sometimes it is 'instant' that people are set free.

However, historically the term 'born again' by water & the Spirit- was referring to your Baptism (water) and there receiving the Holy Spirit.

Very confusing to me that many have experienced conversion (becoming a new creation / brand new disposition towards God) and yet have not received the Holy Spirit until they later get baptised. This verse - "Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit" (1 John 4:13) is hard to interpret that whatever has happened when one experiences God coming into their life and radically changing them is something other than being born of the Spirit.

The way modern Christianity uses Born Again is not now it was used from the beginning (although there are denominations do recognize it is referring to your baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit.)
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Valerie
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:We cannot know for sure in our own human minds. There are no "guarantees".

But we can know God is good, and Jesus is good, and we can trust him with our souls and lives. He asks us to follow him. I plan to follow him, and I simply trust that following him will lead me into the kingdom.
Curious where you have been taught this Josh- although I agree that free will means we can walk away from the faith, are you suggesting one can't know if their born again? So we cannot refer to ourselves as Christians?
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Sudsy
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:We cannot know for sure in our own human minds. There are no "guarantees".

But we can know God is good, and Jesus is good, and we can trust him with our souls and lives. He asks us to follow him. I plan to follow him, and I simply trust that following him will lead me into the kingdom.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

Sounds to me we can know.
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Sudsy
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:Regarding Salvation Army Christians- I cannot be the judge of how Christ sees their disobedience to be baptized, He Himself was baptized and again said in Matthew 28:19 to teach all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (or Ghost depending on translation).

In the old testament, God winked at ignorance, could it be He is doing this today with so much error & confusion regarding Scripture interpretation? I don't know how He really views all this, He is just, He is merciful- but to say it's perfectly fine to have denominations that abstain from baptism is not sound doctrine.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,


Here we have Apostle Paul reminding the Christians to hold both 'oral' and 'written' traditions- meaning not everything was written down that they were instructing.
From where I sit I can only observe the fruit I believe I am seeing from God fearing, Jesus following, Salvation Army folk. Personally, I think God must be very tolerant of much of our mis-understandings of scripture. Imo, scripture could have been written far more explicit regarding following Jesus and other areas of theology but for some reason God did not make it so and man has become very divided in how to follow Jesus. One of my first questions when I die if we still need to ask these kind of questions.

Thanks again Valerie for all your input. Lots to consider.
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Sudsy
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I would add to this also that we have no scriptural reference to anyone being baptised in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. We do have references that they immersed in Jesus name. So even though it is argued that scripture does not clearly say whether or not to baptise children, what scripture does say in the great commission is not taken literallyt in how to baptise. So, then what else should not be taken literally that Jesus commanded is a question that comes mind. [/color]

Thanks Sudsy, the Scriptural reference was Jesus commandment-

Matthew 28:19
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

So much of how the Church started wasn't recorded & dictated by scribes- but we learn of it more through the early church fathers/writers- but yes it was Scriptural to baptize in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit as Jesus commanded-
My point was in scripture there are no examples of the great commission being followed word for word. I have heard some explanations why in scripture they baptised in Jesus name instead but not that convincing yet. Now the Oneness Pentecostals would say that is simple - the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is 'Jesus', case closed.
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Valerie
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I would add to this also that we have no scriptural reference to anyone being baptised in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. We do have references that they immersed in Jesus name. So even though it is argued that scripture does not clearly say whether or not to baptise children, what scripture does say in the great commission is not taken literallyt in how to baptise. So, then what else should not be taken literally that Jesus commanded is a question that comes mind. [/color]

Thanks Sudsy, the Scriptural reference was Jesus commandment-

Matthew 28:19
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

So much of how the Church started wasn't recorded & dictated by scribes- but we learn of it more through the early church fathers/writers- but yes it was Scriptural to baptize in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit as Jesus commanded-
My point was in scripture there are no examples of the great commission being followed word for word. I have heard some explanations why in scripture they baptised in Jesus name instead but not that convincing yet. Now the Oneness Pentecostals would say that is simple - the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is 'Jesus', case closed.
So now you understand what led me away from Sola Scriptura- do you see how when people try to determine everything to do in practice based on Scripture alone, we come to many conclusions- but indeed we had the Church, we had Apostolic succession and bishops who were directly discipled by the Apostles who then expounded on the Scriptures and gave descriptions that help us gain more understanding of the New Testament Church, that the Holy Spirit was guiding as it grew and became world wide- which was the will of the Father- and the Great Commission of Jesus Christ-

Regarding this thread though Sudsy- I am just emphasizing that the term "Born Again" has a historic meaning that the modern day evangelicals don't adhere to- really it has gained a new definition primarily in the last few decades. Throughout this 2000 year Church Age, Born Again or New Birth was referring to one's Baptism-
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Sudsy
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: So now you understand what led me away from Sola Scriptura- do you see how when people try to determine everything to do in practice based on Scripture alone, we come to many conclusions- but indeed we had the Church, we had Apostolic succession and bishops who were directly discipled by the Apostles who then expounded on the Scriptures and gave descriptions that help us gain more understanding of the New Testament Church, that the Holy Spirit was guiding as it grew and became world wide- which was the will of the Father- and the Great Commission of Jesus Christ-

Regarding this thread though Sudsy- I am just emphasizing that the term "Born Again" has a historic meaning that the modern day evangelicals don't adhere to- really it has gained a new definition primarily in the last few decades. Throughout this 2000 year Church Age, Born Again or New Birth was referring to one's Baptism-
Yes, I agree that Sola Scriptura folk come to varied conclusions in interpreting scripture alone. Yet how can one be sure that Apostolic succession has been a pure interpretation and practise of Christianity ? Sounds like you studied this enough to have put your faith in this succession being kept pure.

And, of course, Anabaptists don't believe in Sola Scriptura either but rather in interpretation being a task for a community of believers full of the Holy Spirit and seeking to walk in the footsteps of Jesus. But, here again, Anabaptists disagree amongst their many groups regardless of this approach.

And thankyou for the information on how the term "Born Again" was historically viewed as water baptism. I have seen too many who adhere to baptismal regeneration that show no signs of being regenerated. Likewise, those who claim being born again through some other means (i.e. the sinner's prayer). To me, being born again is about a change of heart that immediately begins and continues to reflect fruit that accompanies this new creation.
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Sudsy
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Sudsy »

Quote from Menno -
Yea, my friends, if you were born of God in your baptism, and had received the Holy Ghost, as your comforters persuade and assure you, then it could not be otherwise than that the new, spiritual life and its fruits would also be manifest, as it was the case with the saints from the beginning, and is yet; for it is clear, that the regenerated do not presumptuously live in sin, but through faith, in true repentance, by baptism, are buried into the death of Christ, and also arise with him to a new life, and those who have the Spirit of the Lord, bring forth also the fruits of the Spirit.
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Valerie
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote: So now you understand what led me away from Sola Scriptura- do you see how when people try to determine everything to do in practice based on Scripture alone, we come to many conclusions- but indeed we had the Church, we had Apostolic succession and bishops who were directly discipled by the Apostles who then expounded on the Scriptures and gave descriptions that help us gain more understanding of the New Testament Church, that the Holy Spirit was guiding as it grew and became world wide- which was the will of the Father- and the Great Commission of Jesus Christ-

Regarding this thread though Sudsy- I am just emphasizing that the term "Born Again" has a historic meaning that the modern day evangelicals don't adhere to- really it has gained a new definition primarily in the last few decades. Throughout this 2000 year Church Age, Born Again or New Birth was referring to one's Baptism-
Yes, I agree that Sola Scriptura folk come to varied conclusions in interpreting scripture alone. Yet how can one be sure that Apostolic succession has been a pure interpretation and practise of Christianity ? Sounds like you studied this enough to have put your faith in this succession being kept pure.

And, of course, Anabaptists don't believe in Sola Scriptura either but rather in interpretation being a task for a community of believers full of the Holy Spirit and seeking to walk in the footsteps of Jesus. But, here again, Anabaptists disagree amongst their many groups regardless of this approach.

And thankyou for the information on how the term "Born Again" was historically viewed as water baptism. I have seen too many who adhere to baptismal regeneration that show no signs of being regenerated. Likewise, those who claim being born again through some other means (i.e. the sinner's prayer). To me, being born again is about a change of heart that immediately begins and continues to reflect fruit that accompanies this new creation.
I understand what you mean, but we do recognize throughout the New Testament, Christians were always baptized- yet many remained immature or carnally minded (at least it SEEMS that way when you read epistles like Corinthians & then Galatians who were easily influenced) however- we leave that in God's hands. I don't believe almost 2000 years of Christianity misunderstood what Born Again meant in all the places the Apostles took the Gospel- until Evangelicals straightened it out in the last few decades. And I agree that there are many baptized in all faiths who do not 'seem' to have been really changed but we must consider the Holy Spirit isn't finished with them yet in sanctification- and also- people can 'choose' to walk in the flesh instead of the Spirit. However Born Again by 'water' (Baptism) and the Spirit (when you are prayed over at that time to be filled with the Spirit and 'sealed') is still what the Apostles did teach- when you read through the book of Acts, it seems the Church was somewhat all over the place in this- sometimes the Spirit was given before Baptism, sometimes after Baptism (when the Holy Spirit fell on New Believers) however over time it became somewhat methodical- Belief, repentance, Baptism (water, descending into the water is dying to self/world as Christ was crucified, and rising out of the water in newness of life as His resurrection) & receiving the Holy Spirit- this became the common pattern as Christianity was taken to the world.
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