How to know you are born again

General Christian Theology
Sudsy
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How to know you are born again

Post by Sudsy »

This thread is open to everyone for conversation regarding how a person knows they are born of the Spirit of God. Add to and discuss any scriptures in the NT that you believe point to proofs of this changed heart -

Here are a number of indicators from the book of 1 John

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God” (1 John 5:1).

“Everyone that doeth righteousness is born of Him” (1 John 2:29).

"We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren” (1 John 3:14).

“Whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world” (1 John 5:4).

“No one born of God makes a practice of sinning” (1 John 3:9).

“He that is begotten of God keepeth himself” (1 John 5:18).

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8)

"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him" (1 John 2:5)

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him" (1 John 2:15)

"When he shall appear, we shall be like him: for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:2-3)

"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit" (1 John 4:13)
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Valerie
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Valerie »

I was converted and baptized- in 1973-
The belief in Christ was in me since I was very young, I had faith as a wee one. However as a young pre-teen/teen I succomed to the ways of the world and was on the wrong path.
Thankfully, my Lord & Savior drew me to Himself- and I surrendered my darkened heart (at that time) and direction of living for self, to living for Him- and had to count the cost. To a young southern Californian teenager who was used to popularity, it meant a dying to self, dying to the enjoyment of popularity to becoming 'one of them' Jesus people (or as they called us in those days, Jesus freaks).
Baptized shortly after- and learning that newness in life also meant the awareness of the attacks of the evil one to draw me back to him would be ever present- in a variety of ways.
Ephesians 6 should be taught I believe early on, to young converts so they learn about the armor of God.

By the way Sudsy, in your other post- you mention being Born Again as some see it as our Baptism.
I didn't understand that until more recently- but now I do believe that Born Again as Jesus taught it, the New Birth- is referring to our actual water baptism. I have read too many explanations from early church writers & fathers of the faith from the first centuries, that always refer to Born Again & New Birth- as the actual baptism. Our 'conversion' might be like Apostle Paul's road to Damascus 'eye opening' to Believe- but New Birth refers to the Baptism, born of water & the Spirit.
I think this must have been what the Apostles taught for it to be so universally understood that way in the early church in various parts of the world from the beginning of the Church.
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Sudsy
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: By the way Sudsy, in your other post- you mention being Born Again as some see it as our Baptism.
I didn't understand that until more recently- but now I do believe that Born Again as Jesus taught it, the New Birth- is referring to our actual water baptism. I have read too many explanations from early church writers & fathers of the faith from the first centuries, that always refer to Born Again & New Birth- as the actual baptism. Our 'conversion' might be like Apostle Paul's road to Damascus 'eye opening' to Believe- but New Birth refers to the Baptism, born of water & the Spirit.
I think this must have been what the Apostles taught for it to be so universally understood that way in the early church in various parts of the world from the beginning of the Church.
Interesting Valerie. Got a few questions if you don' mind me asking.

Do I understand you correctly that being born again/baptised in water is not when the Spirit of God comes to live within us and we are considered to be a child of God ?

If the answer to this is that it is the same moment then I have these further questions -

If the new birth/being born again/being born of the Spirit is through water baptism, then many, if not most, Salvation Army folk have not been born again. And, of course, the thief on the cross, likewise, right ?

If we are baptised in water, yet baptism in scripture means 'immersion', then are those sprinkled, born again ? Immersion reflects that dying to self and being raised to new life, right ?

Would you say being born again through water baptism is also entry into The Church (regeneration ?) and receiving citizenship into the Kingdom of God ?

Do I understand then that a child being baptised in water is then born again and there is no immediate requirement to repent and believe Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again according to the scriptures ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a concept of water baptism that I have been studying lately - http://reknew.org/2014/08/what-does-it- ... aNCmx.dpuf

This is the main thought here - The Betrothal Ceremony. Almost all covenants in the Bible begin with a public ceremony. This was certainly true of first century Jewish marriages. While a full wedding ceremony wouldn’t take place for some time, it was expected that the couple would publicly declare their covenant pledges in a betrothal ceremony soon after the woman accepted the proposal. This is the role baptism plays in the believer’s life. In baptism an individual publicly declares their faith in Christ and pledges to live as a faithful covenant partner within the community of God’s collective bride, the church.

At this point, I still lean this way along with this explanation on believer's baptism - http://reknew.org/2009/03/the-case-for- ... s-baptism/

What stands out the most to me about being born of the Spirit is in my own parents conversion experiences. Where one moment they are heading in a direction controlled by self and the next moment they not only have been changed but there was obviously evidence of this (i.e. delivered immediately from old addictions). Could this have taken place prior to them being born of the Spirit ? I don't think so. Another observation is when some are baptised in water and there is no obvious changes to pursue discipleship. How is this explained ?

Any help with explaining your latest understanding would be appreciated.
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Valerie
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Valerie »

Greetings Sudsy- my reply to your questions could get really long as they would include an article, and many many quotes by early church fathers & writers- so I will want to make sure you want the long version?

2 things regarding your articles, which are good- and I understand them from a 'sola scriptura' standpoint- but here are the two things:

1st article link:

This is the role baptism plays in the believer’s life. In baptism an individual publicly declares their faith in Christ and pledges to live as a faithful covenant partner within the community of God’s collective bride, the church. -

First of all, the Ethiopian eunuch, was he 'publicly' baptized and also where do we read this in Scripture, exactly as that statement says- I don't read any examples in Scripture that it went just like this.

In the second article- the case for believers baptism is based on assumptions, Sola Scriptura, and lack of specific evidence that children were baptized as well. But early church fathers & writers do indicate that infants were baptized, and one of them I quoted before on mennodiscuss, stated that the Apostles taught this. It wasn't something that was added to the faith. I tend to agree with Believers baptism based on the article, but it's hard for me to rule out that the early church baptized infants & children based on the understanding THEY had, about that- that we lack.

That's a start. I will share the article soon.
Plus ask the question in another thread regarding the thief on the cross that joined Jesus in Paradise.
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Valerie
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Valerie »

This article is in my Orthodox Study Bible

The New Birth

Early in His ministry, Jesus revealed the way to enter God's eternal Kingdom. We must be "born again" (John 3:3)) a brith from above realized by water and the Spirit.

In His conversation with Nicodemus, Christ states, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (3:5 of John). From the beginning, the Church has recognized the "water" to be the water of baptism, "the Spirit" to be the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the new birth consists of being joined to Christ in the water of baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit through anointing or "chrismation."

Salvation, then, is more than forgiveness of sins, more that a mental acceptance of Christ and His teachings. For in salvation we are given union with God through Christ, a right and full relationship with the Holy Trinity, and the restoration of our full humanity. All these thigs are accomplished through the Incarnation, the union of God and man in the Person of Jesus Christ. Salvation, then, is founded on a substantial union of the believer with Christ in His full humanity, a flesh-to-flesh relationship. Paul likens it to the joining of husband and wife (Ephesians 5:23-32)

Throughout their epistles, the apostles remind us the new birth is necessary for salvation. We die to sin, then, buried with Christ and risen with Him, we are united to Christ and to His body, the Church. We are cleansed, justified, and sanctified-all in baptism, "the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Tts 3:5). Without our repentance and faith, however, immersion in water would be of no effect.

Some Christians bypass baptism and stress only faith. Why is the mystery of the water necessary? Because just as Christ actually died on a cross, was buried, and rose again-all through His faith and God's grace-so we must actually be immersed in the sacramental waters of baptism, made effectual through our faith and God's grace.

The basic form of baptism is simple. The person to be born again, joined to Christ, is immersed in the water three times in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (see Matthew 28:19). The first century Didache teaches, "If you do not have running water, use whatever is available. And if you cannot do it in cold water, use warm. But if you nave neither, pour water on the head three times- in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit".

In the new birth, a true mystery takes place. For in the sacrament of baptism, we die, going down into the water to be mystically united to Christ in His death, and we live again, rising up out of the water in His resurrected humanity. In short, we are born again.


So basically, this is the historic meaning of the New Birth or term Born Again and the understanding of it laid out.
I know when a person is baptized, they are prayed over to receive the Holy Spirit at that time (Chrismation) so it happens together. I could quote many statements by a variety of early church writers that expounds and/or confirms this understanding.
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Valerie
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote: What stands out the most to me about being born of the Spirit is in my own parents conversion experiences. Where one moment they are heading in a direction controlled by self and the next moment they not only have been changed but there was obviously evidence of this (i.e. delivered immediately from old addictions). Could this have taken place prior to them being born of the Spirit ? I don't think so. Another observation is when some are baptised in water and there is no obvious changes to pursue discipleship. How is this explained ?

Any help with explaining your latest understanding would be appreciated.
To answer your question, I think it is a wonderful miracle what happened with your parents. I hear of this from time to time. I worked in an addictions ministry for several years- it was RARE that it happened like your parents. Most people who had addictions that had converted, still struggled with overcoming their addictions. On occasion we would have someone with a story like your parents. Why does it happen that way for some? I am not sure. Neither am I sure why some people are healed in other infirmities, and others are not.

1 John 1:9(KJV)

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Sometimes it is 'instant' that people are set free.

However, historically the term 'born again' by water & the Spirit- was referring to your Baptism (water) and there receiving the Holy Spirit.

The way modern Christianity uses Born Again is not now it was used from the beginning (although there are denominations do recognize it is referring to your baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit.)
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Josh »

We cannot know for sure in our own human minds. There are no "guarantees".

But we can know God is good, and Jesus is good, and we can trust him with our souls and lives. He asks us to follow him. I plan to follow him, and I simply trust that following him will lead me into the kingdom.
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Sudsy
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:Greetings Sudsy- my reply to your questions could get really long as they would include an article, and many many quotes by early church fathers & writers- so I will want to make sure you want the long version?

2 things regarding your articles, which are good- and I understand them from a 'sola scriptura' standpoint- but here are the two things:

Thanks Valerie for these replies. I'll put my responses in blue -

1st article link:

This is the role baptism plays in the believer’s life. In baptism an individual publicly declares their faith in Christ and pledges to live as a faithful covenant partner within the community of God’s collective bride, the church. -

First of all, the Ethiopian eunuch, was he 'publicly' baptized and also where do we read this in Scripture, exactly as that statement says- I don't read any examples in Scripture that it went just like this.

Good point, I don't find this in scripture either. And I can't find where it ever says that accompanying water baptism they had official became a member of a local church.

In the second article- the case for believers baptism is based on assumptions, Sola Scriptura, and lack of specific evidence that children were baptized as well. But early church fathers & writers do indicate that infants were baptized, and one of them I quoted before on mennodiscuss, stated that the Apostles taught this. It wasn't something that was added to the faith. I tend to agree with Believers baptism based on the article, but it's hard for me to rule out that the early church baptized infants & children based on the understanding THEY had, about that- that we lack.

I would add to this also that we have no scriptural reference to anyone being baptised in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. We do have references that they immersed in Jesus name. So even though it is argued that scripture does not clearly say whether or not to baptise children, what scripture does say in the great commission is not taken literallyt in how to baptise. So, then what else should not be taken literally that Jesus commanded is a question that comes mind.

That's a start. I will share the article soon.
Plus ask the question in another thread regarding the thief on the cross that joined Jesus in Paradise.
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Valerie
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Valerie »

[quote="Sudsy"]I would add to this also that we have no scriptural reference to anyone being baptised in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. We do have references that they immersed in Jesus name. So even though it is argued that scripture does not clearly say whether or not to baptise children, what scripture does say in the great commission is not taken literallyt in how to baptise. So, then what else should not be taken literally that Jesus commanded is a question that comes mind. [/color]

Thanks Sudsy, the Scriptural reference was Jesus commandment-

Matthew 28:19
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

So much of how the Church started wasn't recorded & dictated by scribes- but we learn of it more through the early church fathers/writers- but yes it was Scriptural to baptize in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit as Jesus commanded-
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Sudsy
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Re: How to know you are born again

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: Responses in blue

This article is in my Orthodox Study Bible

The New Birth

Early in His ministry, Jesus revealed the way to enter God's eternal Kingdom. We must be "born again" (John 3:3)) a brith from above realized by water and the Spirit.

In His conversation with Nicodemus, Christ states, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (3:5 of John). From the beginning, the Church has recognized the "water" to be the water of baptism, "the Spirit" to be the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the new birth consists of being joined to Christ in the water of baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit through anointing or "chrismation."

Salvation, then, is more than forgiveness of sins, more that a mental acceptance of Christ and His teachings. For in salvation we are given union with God through Christ, a right and full relationship with the Holy Trinity, and the restoration of our full humanity. All these thigs are accomplished through the Incarnation, the union of God and man in the Person of Jesus Christ. Salvation, then, is founded on a substantial union of the believer with Christ in His full humanity, a flesh-to-flesh relationship. Paul likens it to the joining of husband and wife (Ephesians 5:23-32)

Throughout their epistles, the apostles remind us the new birth is necessary for salvation. We die to sin, then, buried with Christ and risen with Him, we are united to Christ and to His body, the Church. We are cleansed, justified, and sanctified-all in baptism, "the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Tts 3:5). Without our repentance and faith, however, immersion in water would be of no effect.

Some Christians bypass baptism and stress only faith. Why is the mystery of the water necessary? Because just as Christ actually died on a cross, was buried, and rose again-all through His faith and God's grace-so we must actually be immersed in the sacramental waters of baptism, made effectual through our faith and God's grace.

So, here those who bypass baptism (Salvation Army believers) seem to still be called Christians. How can this be if water baptism has saving properties as indicated above as something we 'must' do ?

The basic form of baptism is simple. The person to be born again, joined to Christ, is immersed in the water three times in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (see Matthew 28:19). The first century Didache teaches, "If you do not have running water, use whatever is available. And if you cannot do it in cold water, use warm. But if you nave neither, pour water on the head three times- in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit".

Again here we have no scriptural samples of this occuring. However, most 'sola scriptura' folk I know don't follow scripture to immerse and baptise in Jesus name. Scripture alone for instruction is notin many areas used as the one and only guide to faith and practise.

In the new birth, a true mystery takes place. For in the sacrament of baptism, we die, going down into the water to be mystically united to Christ in His death, and we live again, rising up out of the water in His resurrected humanity. In short, we are born again.

So basically, this is the historic meaning of the New Birth or term Born Again and the understanding of it laid out.
I know when a person is baptized, they are prayed over to receive the Holy Spirit at that time (Chrismation) so it happens together. I could quote many statements by a variety of early church writers that expounds and/or confirms this understanding.
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