Do Numbers Matter ?

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Josh
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Josh »

Following Jesus isn't free. For many, it cost them everything right up to their lives.
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Paul
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Paul »

Josh wrote:Following Jesus isn't free. For many, it cost them everything right up to their lives.
Free in the sense that there are no requirements to come to Jesus Christ, the only requirement is that we see our own ungodliness and need for Him, and that we put our trust in Him. And yes we learn that it costs us our lives to follow Him, but we also learn that He can mould us into the kind of people that persevere and follow Him. He enables us to to give up our lives, the Gospel is not just for those who have a strong character by nature, on the contrary, the naturally weak and despised are often the vessels of Gods grace, and the Spirit enables us to do by faith in Jesus Christ, what we couldn't do in our own fleshly weakness.
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Ernie
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Ernie »

Paul wrote:
Ernie wrote:Here is something I wrote this evening in preparation for a topic. It struck me that it fits in here fairly well.

"When many Christians study Creation to Christ with people, their goal is to get people to agree that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice who paid the penalty for sin. First of all, Jesus tasted death for every man. The NT does not say that he paid the penalty for sin. However, the bigger problem with this is that millions of people will become Christian if believing in Jesus means they can have their sins forgiven and they can spend eternity with Jesus. Add a little drama to the Creation to Christ narrative and you can get large groups of people to believe in Jesus. Any of you who have watched the E-Taow videos might remember how that whole villages came to believe in Jesus.
Now forgiveness of sin and eternal life are definitely part of the Gospel, but by themselves they are simply a “save me Gospel".
They are not a part of the Gospel, they are the Gospel. And no, not so many people are interested to even hear anything about sin, let alone feel the need to have them forgiven or to be mindful about eternity. Most people simply live to enjoy the here-and-now. The Gospel of Jesus Christ when it is offered to a dying world is a gracious offer of forgiveness and eternal life in His Name for nothing, totally free, gratis.
I am very well aware that for you (and others who have been influenced by the same sources) that this IS the Gospel.

For me it is part of the Gospel. My goal is to present the Gospel of the Kingdom - which includes the Gospel that Jesus had his disciples teach. This Gospel was taught before Jesus' death and resurrection.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Paul
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Paul »

Ernie wrote:
I am very well aware that for you (and others who have been influenced by the same sources) that this IS the Gospel.

For me it is part of the Gospel. My goal is to present the Gospel of the Kingdom - which includes the Gospel that Jesus had his disciples teach. This Gospel was taught before Jesus' death and resurrection.
You mean the Bible? This is what Jesus taught, before His death and ressurection aswell as by the apostles afterwards. The prodigal son did not merit his way back to the father, it was by grace, the thief on the cross did not merit his way into paradise, it was by grace through faith.

You have a 'Kingdom' view, well so do I. I believe we are called to live seperate and holy lives for Gods Kingdom, with Jesus Christ as our King. But that seperation should be mostly in our hearts, in our affections and desires, the Kingdom of God is within us, right? It does not come with outward signs to be observed our Lord said.

But what worries me most is that you seem to have a narrow view of what 'the Gospel of the Kingdom' is, one that excludes or re-defines the Gospel of free grace.
Jesus went down to Zacheus to eat with him, and with his 'sinful' friends, and Zacheus gladly left all behind to follow Jesus. He went down to the Samaritans and they believed on Him. The fact that we are citizens of a new Kingdom, that Christ is our King and that we ought to follow and obey Him, does not detract anything from the free grace of the Gospel that is offered for salvation. Look at this parable of our Lord:

'Luke 18: 9-14 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.'

Isn't that a shining example of grace? Jesus confirms that God justified the man simply because he 'said this prayer'. It does not mention the man taking up his cross, it does not mention some level of self-denial or works. Though undoubtedly they followed, because God made him a new creature, but we should not put the cart before the horse. First comes the Gospel of free grace through faith in Jesus Christ, He has made all things ready, and sent His servants out with this simple message 'Come for all things are ready', and then, after we come to Him, will follow the fruit and life that confirms the profession.

Luke 14:17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.

And all these examples are from our Lord before He ascended into heaven. The way of salvation has always been the same, by grace through faith, though the amount of revelation, the packaging and wording might have been different, Gods plan for man's salvation was already made before the foundation of the world.
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appleman2006
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by appleman2006 »

So let us start with things that I am guessing we agree on.
1. Christ came for "whosoever". He calls all people to himself.
2. We all have a choice in the matter as to whether we accept the call.
3. We have all sinned and are in need of a Saviour.
4. We are justified through faith. The Grace of God is a free gift to all who will receive it. It cannot be earned less any of us should boast.
5. We are His workmanship created in Christ unto good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

I am assuming up till now you would agree with all of that Paul. I have one more point which I am sure you would also agree with
6. Faith without works is not faith at all. It is dead.

So what is the argument?
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Ernie
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Ernie »

Paul wrote:But what worries me most is that you seem to have a narrow view of what 'the Gospel of the Kingdom' is, one that excludes or re-defines the Gospel of free grace.
It doesn't surprise me at all that you are worried. It appears that you have defined the Gospel as "the Gospel of free grace". I'm very familiar with this way of thinking.
Here are some examples of a synopsis of the Gospel that you can find in most Christian bookstores in the West. https://www.crossway.org/blog/2016/10/w ... -gospel-2/
https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-the-gospel.html

I don't put this limitation on the word Gospel. I'm fine with including all the teachings of Jesus in the term Gospel, regardless of whether they sound like free grace or not. I think it would be hard to find my understanding of what is included in the word Gospel in most Christian bookstores.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Sudsy
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Sudsy »

Here is a wonderful sermon by Spurgeon on counting the cost. O to hear such sermons today. Here is an excerpt -
Our Lord Jesus was far too wise to pride Himself upon the number of His converts. He cared, rather, for quality than quantity; He rejoiced over one sinner that repented, but 10,000 sinners who merely professed to have repented would have
given Him no joy whatever. His heart longed after the real; He loathed the counterfeit;
i highly recommend this read - http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols19-21/chs1159.pdf
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Paul
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Paul »

appleman2006 wrote:So let us start with things that I am guessing we agree on.
1. Christ came for "whosoever". He calls all people to himself.
2. We all have a choice in the matter as to whether we accept the call.
3. We have all sinned and are in need of a Saviour.
4. We are justified through faith. The Grace of God is a free gift to all who will receive it. It cannot be earned less any of us should boast.
5. We are His workmanship created in Christ unto good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

I am assuming up till now you would agree with all of that Paul. I have one more point which I am sure you would also agree with
6. Faith without works is not faith at all. It is dead.

So what is the argument?
Yes ofcourse I agree with all points, I think the argument is about emphasis. I put the emphasis on the free grace of God in Jesus Christ, because I am on an anabaptist forum. And I do sense an attitude of condemnation of 'sinners' sometimes, as in Ernie's comment previously, instead of a gracious attitude of compassion that longs to reach out to others with Gods grace. That attitude - and I know it because I live among the 'frozen chosen' - gives a certain sense of superiority, and really can make a person passive and reluctant to go out and share the Gospel.

I think 'free grace' is a very powerful truth because God does not save us because we are worthy, but because He is gracious and Jesus Christ paid the price so unrighteous people might be made righteous. And it's an incentive for people to share this message with others. There are no requirements for justification, except for coming to Jesus Christ. Now sanctification is a whole other issue, but if we start with sanctification - which is what the 'Kingdom Principles' are, the principles for a sanctified life in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ - then we forget that we first need justification to live that life, we first need to receive the Holy Spirit to live a sanctified life. Otherwise it will be nothing but a legalistic work-righteousness that will not inherit Gods Kingdom.

If two people both have a cart and a horse, and the one tries to put the cart before the horse and persists that the cart should go first, then he might have the same 'ingredients' as the other person, but the cart won't run like the other, who put the horse before the cart. You can have the same basic doctrines, but the application can be so different, that the result is that one way actually 'works', gets the cart running, makes the Body of Christ a salt and light in the world, because it is the 'way' Jesus Christ taught applied in the way He meanth it to be applied. And the other might have the same, or similar, ingredients, but applied in the wrong way.

Jesus told his disciples, freely have you received, freely give. Freely give what? The offer of salvation, the free grace of God in Jesus Christ. I think that's the ingredient that is often missing at the heart of anabaptism because the emphasis is so much on holiness and sanctification. Now if I had been on a liberal evangelical forum, I might be arguing holiness and sanctification. Because I do believe those are essential to the life of faith, and so much overlooked in these days. But since I am on this forum, I'd love to stir up any hearts for sharing the Gospel of our Lord - which yes includes the Kingdom Principles - but it starts with the gracious offer of forgiveness of sin in the Name of Jesus Christ, I think if we start there, in reaching out to the lost, we can really get the cart running for our Lords Kingdom.
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Ernie
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Ernie »

Paul wrote:Jesus told his disciples, freely have you received, freely give. Freely give what? The offer of salvation, the free grace of God in Jesus Christ. I think that's the ingredient that is often missing at the heart of anabaptism because the emphasis is so much on holiness and sanctification. Now if I had been on a liberal evangelical forum, I might be arguing holiness and sanctification. Because I do believe those are essential to the life of faith, and so much overlooked in these days. But since I am on this forum, I'd love to stir up any hearts for sharing the Gospel of our Lord - which yes includes the Kingdom Principles - but it starts with the gracious offer of forgiveness of sin in the Name of Jesus Christ, I think if we start there, in reaching out to the lost, we can really get the cart running for our Lords Kingdom.
Yes, we teach free grace to those who aren't very familiar with it. It is embedded deep in Anabaptist DNA. Typically people who are coming our direction are aware of free grace but are wanting to know more about holiness and sanctification so we end up talking about that a lot.
Here on MN I feel no need to talk about free grace because I assume everyone believes it.
Old Order and Conservative Anabaptists who feel threatened by "free gracers" are likely to put a lot of emphasis on holiness and sanctification but I don't think it is missing in historic Anabaptism.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
GaryK
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by GaryK »

Paul wrote: Yes ofcourse I agree with all points, I think the argument is about emphasis. I put the emphasis on the free grace of God in Jesus Christ, because I am on an anabaptist forum. And I do sense an attitude of condemnation of 'sinners' sometimes, as in Ernie's comment previously, instead of a gracious attitude of compassion that longs to reach out to others with Gods grace. That attitude - and I know it because I live among the 'frozen chosen' - gives a certain sense of superiority, and really can make a person passive and reluctant to go out and share the Gospel.
Paul wrote:Jesus told his disciples, freely have you received, freely give. Freely give what? The offer of salvation, the free grace of God in Jesus Christ. I think that's the ingredient that is often missing at the heart of anabaptism because the emphasis is so much on holiness and sanctification. Now if I had been on a liberal evangelical forum, I might be arguing holiness and sanctification. Because I do believe those are essential to the life of faith, and so much overlooked in these days. But since I am on this forum, I'd love to stir up any hearts for sharing the Gospel of our Lord - which yes includes the Kingdom Principles - but it starts with the gracious offer of forgiveness of sin in the Name of Jesus Christ, I think if we start there, in reaching out to the lost, we can really get the cart running for our Lords Kingdom.
I'm doubtful you know Ernie IRL. I don't know any conservative Anabaptists that have more of a heart to reach out to the unchurched and unsaved with the gospel of the Kingdom than he does.
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