Do Numbers Matter ?

General Christian Theology
Sudsy
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Sudsy »

Paul, did you get a chance to view Spurgeon's sermon that I gave a link to in that previous post ?

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols19-21/chs1159.pdf

If not, Spurgeon, who was a keen soul winner, said this at the end in talking about the Luke 14:28-30 text -

It is astonishing that though Jesus thundered out as from the top of Sinai, and His words seemed harsh, yet it is written, “Then drew near unto Him all the publicans and sinners for to hear Him,” as if they said to themselves, “This man tells us the truth of God, therefore we will hear Him.” And then He began to tell them the precious truths of His free grace, acting just as the farmer does who puts in the plow, and turns up the soil; when he sees the clods breaking in the furrow, then he scatters the golden seed, but not till then. "

Seems Spurgeon regarded telling sinners to count the cost as a way of attempting to work the soil before planting the seed.

I do agree that some come across in a condemning way rather than just sharing what Jesus said about becoming His follower. On the other hand, some talk of following as if it is not involving a life changing way of living. To me, if love is the motivator, then telling the truth in love, will not repel those who trully are interested in becoming a citizen of the Kingdom. Love will also show through as the wonderful message of God's grace and gift of salvation and gift of the Holy Spirit are also shared as part of the goods news. Yes ? No ?

Spurgeon ends with this- "Listen, every one of you who would have Christ! Come, and have Him! You, who would have salvation, accept it as the gift of His sovereign grace! But do not receive it under misapprehension—understand
what is meant by it! Salvation is not deliverance from hell, alone—it is deliverance from sin! It is not the rescue of men merely from eternal pain—it is their redemption from this world’s vain and wicked ways! It cannot be divided! It is a garment without seam, woven from the top throughout. If you would have justification, you must have sanctification! If you would have pardon, you must have holiness! It you would be one with Christ, you must be separate from sinners! If you would walk the streets of gold above, you must walk the road of holiness below! "
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appleman2006
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by appleman2006 »

Thank you for your answer Paul. I am going to echo what Gary said above about Ernie. He really does have a heart for those that do not know Christ and his ways.
I do understand why at times Anabaptism may seem like a works based religion to you. Unfortunately some of us do come across in a self righteous way at times which shows, I guess that we are in need of the grace of God as much as anyone.
But as far as our theology is concerned, as someone who has grown up in Anabaptist circles, graduated from a Mennonite Bible School and have sat under Anabaptist teaching all of my life, I can assure you that I have never ever been taught anything other than that grace is a free gift. Nor have I ever been taught that our exact way of doing things is the only way. What I do appreciate very much about the teaching I have received is that it is understood that a true faith in God will show in every single area of our life, overtime. We recognize that sanctification is a progressive process. It does not happen all at once nor is it always going to be instantly apparent to everyone we meet. As you said. God knows our heart. We at best are simply fruit inspectors.
I am willing to make a deal with you. Since I cannot see your heart I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and not judge you too harshly. I recognize that in fact you are very likely endeavoring to follow after Christ and his teaching. Would you be willing to give Ernie and perhaps at least some of the other "frozen chosen" in your area the same benefit? I am sure they could learn something about the joy of the Lord from you just as there might be a few things you would learn from them. I have found life to be like that.
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Paul
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Paul »

appleman2006 wrote:Thank you for your answer Paul. I am going to echo what Gary said above about Ernie. He really does have a heart for those that do not know Christ and his ways.
I do understand why at times Anabaptism may seem like a works based religion to you. Unfortunately some of us do come across in a self righteous way at times which shows, I guess that we are in need of the grace of God as much as anyone.
But as far as our theology is concerned, as someone who has grown up in Anabaptist circles, graduated from a Mennonite Bible School and have sat under Anabaptist teaching all of my life, I can assure you that I have never ever been taught anything other than that grace is a free gift. Nor have I ever been taught that our exact way of doing things is the only way. What I do appreciate very much about the teaching I have received is that it is understood that a true faith in God will show in every single area of our life, overtime. We recognize that sanctification is a progressive process. It does not happen all at once nor is it always going to be instantly apparent to everyone we meet. As you said. God knows our heart. We at best are simply fruit inspectors.
I am willing to make a deal with you. Since I cannot see your heart I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and not judge you too harshly. I recognize that in fact you are very likely endeavoring to follow after Christ and his teaching. Would you be willing to give Ernie and perhaps at least some of the other "frozen chosen" in your area the same benefit? I am sure they could learn something about the joy of the Lord from you just as there might be a few things you would learn from them. I have found life to be like that.
Thanks for your gracious answer aswell Appleman. I do believe you and Gary, when you say that Ernie has a heart for the lost and I am glad to hear that.

The point we seem to differ on is the method to reach those lost, same with the 'frozen chosen' in my area. That doesn't mean I can't learn anything from them or from you, I love to watch (good) series or documentaries on the Amish for instance, because I do think there are many things I can learn from them. One of the things I learned from simply watching the Amish was how a great work ethic makes life so much more meaningful and enjoyable. But when it comes to Evangelism, there seems to be a lack of effort or understanding, in doing what Jesus asks from us. Again, that's not to say there are no good things - but I am not going to pretend there are no errors either. And as a Body we are called to admonish one another right? I don't mean my remarks as an attack at all, but more of a wake-up call. And I try the same for the 'frozen chosen', if they would wake up and start sharing the Gospel, there's no telling how Gods Kingdom could increase. I hope you can understand that I do understand the importance of holiness and sanctification, I understand it very much so, and maybe my view of anabaptism is a little bit coloured by the 'amish', which are not representative of the mennonites or the anabaptists as a whole. But I do hope there is a willingness to look at Evangelism from a Biblical viewpoint and compare it with the reality of everyday life, to see if it matches, though perhaps this is not the right topic for that. But believe it or not, Evangelism has a very sanctifying influence, much much self-sacrifice is involved, so it's a win-win :D. God bless you
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Paul
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Paul »

Sudsy wrote:Paul, did you get a chance to view Spurgeon's sermon that I gave a link to in that previous post ?

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols19-21/chs1159.pdf
I didn't yet, but I will for sure, and I agree with what you shared about Spurgeons sermon. I do think he had a wonderful balance and power in his preaching, and I think indeed proclaiming the truth in love is the key.
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RZehr
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by RZehr »

Paul wrote: The point we seem to differ on is the method to reach those lost, same with the 'frozen chosen' in my area. That doesn't mean I can't learn anything from them or from you, I love to watch (good) series or documentaries on the Amish for instance, because I do think there are many things I can learn from them. One of the things I learned from simply watching the Amish was how a great work ethic makes life so much more meaningful and enjoyable. But when it comes to Evangelism, there seems to be a lack of effort or understanding, in doing what Jesus asks from us. Again, that's not to say there are no good things - but I am not going to pretend there are no errors either. And as a Body we are called to admonish one another right? I don't mean my remarks as an attack at all, but more of a wake-up call. And I try the same for the 'frozen chosen', if they would wake up and start sharing the Gospel, there's no telling how Gods Kingdom could increase. I hope you can understand that I do understand the importance of holiness and sanctification, I understand it very much so, and maybe my view of anabaptism is a little bit coloured by the 'amish', which are not representative of the mennonites or the anabaptists as a whole. But I do hope there is a willingness to look at Evangelism from a Biblical viewpoint and compare it with the reality of everyday life, to see if it matches, though perhaps this is not the right topic for that. But believe it or not, Evangelism has a very sanctifying influence, much much self-sacrifice is involved, so it's a win-win :D. God bless you
Do you have first hand experience with any Anabaptist? Or is your opinion only based on Amish documentaries and the internet?
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Josh
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Josh »

There are far more people who want to be Amish because they see them actually living out the good news than people who say, for example, "I want to be Baptist" or "I want to be nondenominational evangelical", and certainly because they see a kingdom lifestyle worth joining.

The evangelical message seems to be "Come as you are - stay as you are - we won't ever need you to change." The good news is that your entire life will change.
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Valerie
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:There are far more people who want to be Amish because they see them actually living out the good news than people who say, for example, "I want to be Baptist" or "I want to be nondenominational evangelical", and certainly because they see a kingdom lifestyle worth joining.

The evangelical message seems to be "Come as you are - stay as you are - we won't ever need you to change." The good news is that your entire life will change.

I have to take issue with some of this- and I appreciate Appleman's & Pauls exchange and the honesty, speaking the truth in love.

There are many many people who admire the Amish for more reasons than that they see them as living out the Gospel. Every Amish person I've known personally, or has left- really do not see Amish as living out the whole Gospel. The fact that they do not openly share their faith and try to reach the lost, is proof that they do not totally live out the Gospel. All of it- many see the Great Commission as of utmost importance- do the Amish? Now I have spent a great deal of time defending Amish, and have taken quite a bit of flack for doing so, from formers who don't believe their people are really 'born again' and reveal many many problems with the Amish that outsiders don't see. I've also dealt personally with enough people who were seekers to Amish to see there are many who seem to romanticize their lifestyle-kind of a 'little house on the prairie' wish. Many I have read don't necessarily want it or see it as living for Christ. Some do- but there's a lot of seekers that seek for a variety of other reasons.

Also I have NEVER, in all the decades of being in evangelical/Pentecostal churches heard "Come as you are-stay as you are. Ever. There has always been the teachings from the pulpit and fellow Believers to mature, grow, sanctification, and so I'm finding that some of the assumptions in these posts regarding Evangelicals is not my experience in the 40 plus years of being with/around them.
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Ernie
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Ernie »

Paul wrote:maybe my view of anabaptism is a little bit coloured by the 'amish', which are not representative of the mennonites or the anabaptists as a whole.
What I appreciate about the Amish is not their zeal for evangelism and their bringing of the lost and unchurched into the church. My inspiration for evangelism comes from the pilgrim church throughout the centuries. Contemporary groups like the Evangelicals, Mormons, and JW's have all "provoked me to love and good works" in this matter and got me off my chair.
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Sudsy
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: Also I have NEVER, in all the decades of being in evangelical/Pentecostal churches heard "Come as you are-stay as you are. Ever. There has always been the teachings from the pulpit and fellow Believers to mature, grow, sanctification, and so I'm finding that some of the assumptions in these posts regarding Evangelicals is not my experience in the 40 plus years of being with/around them.
That is my experience also, Valerie and I have spent years in 2 types of Pentecostals, an Evangelical Mennonite, Salvation Army and two kinds of Baptist fellowships. What I do think is different from very conservative Anabaptist churches is that these churches do not impose on their members and adherents standard life styles that they believe is a proper application of orthopraxy. In my past, some of these like classical Pentecostals did preach and expect a certain style of living but not so much today and sometimes they tolerate certain open sinning such as we see in 1 Cor 5 and should deal with this more in a scriptural way.

Most are tolerant of areas like worship music styles, dress standards, alcohol abstinence, segregated seating, following professional sports, head coverings and other areas like this as it is thought to be areas more of personal conviction as each grows in their walk with God. And as personal convictions, some of these Christians would not even have a computer like we use as to them the temptations to use them wrongly is not fleeing from this possible danger. However, they would still fellowship with those who do. Their views on engaging the world and living in a modern lifestyle that still honors God is their belief in the orthopraxy that scripture teaches. But in my experience, what was taught is that being born again will result in change appetite towards God and this world. And in my experience, both Calvinists and non-Calvinists, immersers and sprinklers, worship bands and traditional singing all teach holy living. Orthopraxy is important but more of a nature that fits into current culture and yet can still be God honoring.

Anyway, this thread was intended to focus more on should there still be a steady increase in the growth of our local fellowships and if there is not, could it be that our fishing/sowing methods are not as Jesus demonstrated.
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cmbl
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by cmbl »

In my time in theologically conservative evangelical Protestant circles, I think there was an undercurrent of pride to which I succumbed: "I thank you God that I am not like other men, like this liberal welcoming unrepentant homosexuals into an almost-empty church. Our churches and campus ministries are growing. We teach the right stuff."

When I awoke to the fact that the way I was living, and the way the other young men around me were living, put us outside the kingdom of God, I had to change my way of life; my religious affiliation to a much smaller band of Christianity; and my attitude toward numbers.

Numbers matter, but they are not a substitute for repentance and the amendment of life. Because numbers matter, I would be uneasy to hear an almost-all ethnic Anabaptist church reassuring themselves that they care about quality, not quantity.
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