Do Numbers Matter ?

[Sudsy]

One of the statements or a similar statement I have heard regarding evangelism is that we shouldn't focus much on numbers of converts but rather on the quality of converts. Seems this is a most common remark from those who are not seeing many or any converts in their church communities. It also is used to point at those who are seeing new converts yet these converts don't appear to be reflecting much or any conversion. Sometimes it is the result of accepting that true Christianity will end up being a 'little flock' so don't expect many to follow the narrow road.

So, do numbers matter ? Should there still be an adding to the church on-going as we read in Acts 2:47 ?

Scripture says that Jesus is willing that none should perish but that all should come to repentance. So, is it Jesus fault that 'all' will not be saved or is it ours or whose to blame ?

Jesus said that He would make His first followers fishers of men and went about training them how to fish. Have we lost the art of fishing for quality catches or have we never really discipled others to be effective fishermen ? Another way to say this is if we are sowing seed, after that a good crop is up to God ? Or are we using that as an excuse for our poor seed sowing ?

Our MB church has assigned a pastor to local evangelism and I'm thinking about how this might unfold. Do we know the good seed to sow that can produce a good crop ? What kind of fishing skills will be taught ?

Everyone welcomed to give their perspective on this and especially your thoughts on the key issue to why a church community is not experiencing on-going converts ?

[Ernie]

Everyone welcomed to give their perspective on this and especially your thoughts on the key issue to why a church community is not experiencing on-going converts ?

I think the key issue can vary a lot from group to group...
Some church communities are not making friends with sinners and bringing them into their social circle.
Some church communities ask things of new converts that Jesus wouldn't ask of them.
Some church communities are mostly of the same ethnic background.
Some church communities are inconsistent. They expect converts to make lots of changes while tolerating their own offspring to push the boundaries. They may also allow older people to be part of the church who definitely have their affections set on things below.
Some church communities don't call converts to do much more than what they did before they came to Christ.

[Sudsy]

Everyone welcomed to give their perspective on this and especially your thoughts on the key issue to why a church community is not experiencing on-going converts ?

I think the key issue can vary a lot from group to group...
Some church communities are not making friends with sinners and bringing them into their social circle
Some church communities ask things of new converts that Jesus wouldn't ask of them.
Some church communities are mostly of the same ethnic background.
Some church communities are inconsistent. They expect converts to make lots of changes while tolerating their own offspring to push the boundaries. They may also allow older people to be part of the church who definitely have their affections set on things below.
Some church communities don't call converts to do much more than what they did before they came to Christ.

Thanks Ernie. This gives some opportunity for deeper discussion on these types of communities. Lets start with this one -

Some church communities are not making friends with sinners and bringing them into their social circle

Could this be the result of a mis-application of what 'separation from the world' means ? If we look at Jesus and how He lived, He was criticized by the Pharisees as being a 'friend of sinners' as Jesus hung out, ate and drank with sinners and socially unacceptable people. But James (chapter 4) says we are not supposed to have friendship with the world. If we are friends with the world, we are an enemy with God. So, there could be confusion on what James said and what Jesus did. Jesus was not joining sinners in their sin but rather to teach them that forgiveness was available regardless of how bad they sinned. We must engage the world and explain to them the good news of the kingdom if we are to take obedience seriously. That is the main mission and starting point in making disciples. So, how does a community get to see this as disobedience when they are so keen on other areas of obedience ? Or do you see something else that causes communities to not engage with sinners out where sinners habit ?

[Josh]

Numbers matter once they are zero.

[Josh]

Everyone welcomed to give their perspective on this and especially your thoughts on the key issue to why a church community is not experiencing on-going converts ?

I think the key issue can vary a lot from group to group...
Some church communities are not making friends with sinners and bringing them into their social circle
Some church communities ask things of new converts that Jesus wouldn't ask of them.
Some church communities are mostly of the same ethnic background.
Some church communities are inconsistent. They expect converts to make lots of changes while tolerating their own offspring to push the boundaries. They may also allow older people to be part of the church who definitely have their affections set on things below.
Some church communities don't call converts to do much more than what they did before they came to Christ.

Thanks Ernie. This gives some opportunity for deeper discussion on these types of communities. Lets start with this one -

Some church communities are not making friends with sinners and bringing them into their social circle

Could this be the result of a mis-application of what 'separation from the world' means ? If we look at Jesus and how He lived, He was criticized by the Pharisees as being a 'friend of sinners' as Jesus hung out, ate and drank with sinners and socially unacceptable people. But James (chapter 4) says we are not supposed to have friendship with the world. If we are friends with the world, we are an enemy with God. So, there could be confusion on what James said and what Jesus did. Jesus was not joining sinners in their sin but rather to teach them that forgiveness was available regardless of how bad they sinned. We must engage the world and explain to them the good news of the kingdom if we are to take obedience seriously. That is the main mission and starting point in making disciples. So, how does a community get to see this as disobedience when they are so keen on other areas of obedience ? Or do you see something else that causes communities to not engage with sinners out where sinners habit ?

I would agree with this sentiment. Currently,
I find myself sitting at a bar in a restaurant or dive bar at least once a week, often able to connect with friends or with strangers in ways that, quite frankly, some of my co-religionists cannot. I am not remotely tempted to drink or fall into an ungodly lifestyle.

When I was a bit more reserved about such things and avoided being in bars or sitting at bars, I did succumb to temptation and got drunk once. But it was in a home with fellow Mennonites, so my guard was down. And I really had no kingdom purpose for being there. It was just hanging out having fun with people i share a lot in common in terms of religion, ethnicity, etc.

[Sudsy]

Ernie posted - Some church communities ask things of new converts that Jesus wouldn't ask of them.

Imo, a community can have it's standards on common grounds of belief and practise but members need to be very tolerant and encouraging to new converts to develop spiritually and learn why certain standards are in place for it's members. The new convert should not be treated and/or made to feel as ouside the family of God when not an official community member. I think some do this well while others seem to say if you want to fellowship here, these are the rules, take it or leave it. New converts need 24/7 type of nursing and being fed the milk of the Word. Expectations are not the same for a babe in Christ as they are for a seasoned believer. Yes ? No ?

[Paul]

About the 'friends of sinners' thing, the remark seemed ungracious in my eyes. It reminded me of a little booklet of Charles Spurgeon called 'All of Grace', in which he emphasizes that those are exactly the kind of people Jesus came down to this earth for. I am using that book to work on a dutch website and tract for Evangelism right now, Spurgeon really had a heart for the lost, and a way of reaching them. Me myself have been converted through one of his books, and a friend of mine aswell through a book that I borrowed her. So I praise God for his efforts and I pray the Lord will use his writings to draw many more sinners into His Kingdom!

To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Romans 4:5

'I call your attention to those words, "Him that justifieth the ungodly." They seem to me to be very wonderful words.
Are you not surprised that there should be such an expression as that in the Bible, "That justifieth the ungodly?" I have heard that men that hate the doctrines of the cross bring it as a charge against God, that He saves wicked men and receives to Himself the vilest of the vile. See how this Scripture accepts the charge, and plainly states it! By the mouth of His servant Paul, by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, He takes to Himself the title of "Him that justifieth the ungodly." He makes those just who are unjust, forgives those who deserve to be punished, and favors those who deserve no favor. You thought, did you not, that salvation was for the good? that God's grace was for the pure and holy, who are free from sin? It has fallen into your mind that, if you were excellent, then God would reward you; and you have thought that because you are not worthy, therefore there could be no way of your enjoying His favor. You must be somewhat surprised to read a text like this: "Him that justifieth the ungodly." I do not wonder that you are surprised; for with all my familiarity with the great grace of God, I never cease to wonder at it. It does sound surprising, does it not, that it should be possible for a holy God to justify an unholy man? We, according to the natural legality of our hearts, are always talking about our own goodness and our own worthiness, and we stubbornly hold to it that there must be somewhat in us in order to win the notice of God. Now, God, who sees through all deceptions, knows that there is no goodness whatever in us. He says that "there is none righteous, no not one." He knows that "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags," and, therefore the Lord Jesus did not come into the world to look after goodness and righteousness with him, and to bestow them upon persons who have none of them. He comes, not because we are just, but to make us so: he justifieth the ungodly.' - Charles Spurgeon

[Sudsy]

About the 'friends of sinners' thing, the remark seemed ungracious in my eyes. It reminded me of a little booklet of Charles Spurgeon called 'All of Grace', in which he emphasizes that those are exactly the kind of people Jesus came down to this earth for. I am using that book to work on a dutch website and tract for Evangelism right now, Spurgeon really had a heart for the lost, and a way of reaching them. Me myself have been converted through one of his books, and a friend of mine aswell through a book that I borrowed her. So I praise God for his efforts and I pray the Lord will use his writings to draw many more sinners into His Kingdom!

To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Romans 4:5

'I call your attention to those words, "Him that justifieth the ungodly." They seem to me to be very wonderful words.
Are you not surprised that there should be such an expression as that in the Bible, "That justifieth the ungodly?" I have heard that men that hate the doctrines of the cross bring it as a charge against God, that He saves wicked men and receives to Himself the vilest of the vile. See how this Scripture accepts the charge, and plainly states it! By the mouth of His servant Paul, by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, He takes to Himself the title of "Him that justifieth the ungodly." He makes those just who are unjust, forgives those who deserve to be punished, and favors those who deserve no favor. You thought, did you not, that salvation was for the good? that God's grace was for the pure and holy, who are free from sin? It has fallen into your mind that, if you were excellent, then God would reward you; and you have thought that because you are not worthy, therefore there could be no way of your enjoying His favor. You must be somewhat surprised to read a text like this: "Him that justifieth the ungodly." I do not wonder that you are surprised; for with all my familiarity with the great grace of God, I never cease to wonder at it. It does sound surprising, does it not, that it should be possible for a holy God to justify an unholy man? We, according to the natural legality of our hearts, are always talking about our own goodness and our own worthiness, and we stubbornly hold to it that there must be somewhat in us in order to win the notice of God. Now, God, who sees through all deceptions, knows that there is no goodness whatever in us. He says that "there is none righteous, no not one." He knows that "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags," and, therefore the Lord Jesus did not come into the world to look after goodness and righteousness with him, and to bestow them upon persons who have none of them. He comes, not because we are just, but to make us so: he justifieth the ungodly.' - Charles Spurgeon

Spurgeon trully was one of those with a heart for the lost. I enjoy reading some of his sermons. Here are some of his quotes on evangelism -

“Every Christian is either a missionary or an imposter.”

"I would sooner bring one sinner to Jesus Christ than unravel all the mysteries of the divine Word, for salvation is the one thing we are to live for"

“Lost! Lost! Lost! Better a whole world on fire than a soul lost! Better every star quenched and the skies a wreck than a single soul to be lost!”

“If there be any one point in which the Christian church ought to keep its fervor at a white heat, it is concerning missions. If there be anything about which we cannot tolerate lukewarmness,it is the matter of sending the gospel to a dying world.”

“When preaching and private talk are not available, you need to have a tract ready….Get good striking tracts, or none at all. But a touching gospel tract may be the seed of eternal life. Therefore, do not go out without your tracts.”

“To be a soul winner is the happiest thing in the world. And with every soul you bring to Jesus Christ, you seem to get a new heaven here upon earth.”

“God save us from living in comfort while sinners are sinking into hell!”

To Spurgeon the main doctrines to be taught a sinner was ruin (what man has done), redemption (what God has done) and regeneration (what God must do in sinners for them to believe). My dad was not a calvinist but he really loved to read Spurgeon's sermons. Dad had that same kind of evangelistic fervour.

[Ernie]

Here is something I wrote this evening in preparation for a topic. It struck me that it fits in here fairly well.

"When many Christians study Creation to Christ with people, their goal is to get people to agree that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice who paid the penalty for sin. First of all, Jesus tasted death for every man. The NT does not say that he paid the penalty for sin. However, the bigger problem with this is that millions of people will become Christian if believing in Jesus means they can have their sins forgiven and they can spend eternity with Jesus. Add a little drama to the Creation to Christ narrative and you can get large groups of people to believe in Jesus. Any of you who have watched the E-Taow videos might remember how that whole villages came to believe in Jesus.
Now forgiveness of sin and eternal life are definitely part of the Gospel, but by themselves they are simply a “save me Gospel".

So when you teach Creation to Christ, you need to do more than talk about the scarlet thread. You need to talk about the cost of following God. Look at what it cost Noah, Abraham, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, and many others to follow God. This was not an easy thing. Only a few will be saved. There is the theme throughout the Old Testament of coming out from among the peoples of this world and casting one’s lot with the people of God. Then you go to the NT and look at what Jesus said is involved in following him. Jesus said that family members will disown family members who follow him. Jesus never gives the idea that whole villages will respond to the Gospel. It even seems like Jesus gave individual tests to those who wanted to follow him to see if they were really willing to pay the price. For one man it was selling all that he had. If Jesus had asked that rich young ruler to agree that his coming death would grant him forgiveness of all sin, the rich young ruler might have become a “Christian”. Many in the crowds who followed Jesus looking for loaves and fishes would have been glad to mentally agree that Jesus was going to die for their sins so they could go to heaven.
Do you see the difference?

The temptation to do an Evangelical approach to Bible study is very attractive. Our church has not yet baptized any of the people we have been having Bible studies with, and I’m guessing that if I had followed the Ray Comfort approach or the Mark Cahill approach that we could have some baptized “converts” by now. (Mark says this on his website. Since I gave my life to the Lord, I exist to glorify the God of this universe. That includes wanting to see 7 billion people come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.)
But I keep reminding myself that my goal is not numbers. My goal is to plant seed and to help people count the cost of following Jesus. This always takes more time. I have some friends in Boston who used to use the "scarlet thread" approach in years past when they were Evangelical and they say it was quite easy to get people to respond to the Gospel. Now that they are calling people to count the cost like Jesus did, it is taking them a lot longer.
This should not surprise us. The disciples were with Jesus every day and it still took a few years of intense teaching by Jesus until they were willing to die for Jesus."

[Paul]

Here is something I wrote this evening in preparation for a topic. It struck me that it fits in here fairly well.

"When many Christians study Creation to Christ with people, their goal is to get people to agree that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice who paid the penalty for sin. First of all, Jesus tasted death for every man. The NT does not say that he paid the penalty for sin. However, the bigger problem with this is that millions of people will become Christian if believing in Jesus means they can have their sins forgiven and they can spend eternity with Jesus. Add a little drama to the Creation to Christ narrative and you can get large groups of people to believe in Jesus. Any of you who have watched the E-Taow videos might remember how that whole villages came to believe in Jesus.
Now forgiveness of sin and eternal life are definitely part of the Gospel, but by themselves they are simply a “save me Gospel".

They are not a part of the Gospel, they are the Gospel. And no, not so many people are interested to even hear anything about sin, let alone feel the need to have them forgiven or to be mindful about eternity. Most people simply live to enjoy the here-and-now. The Gospel of Jesus Christ when it is offered to a dying world is a gracious offer of forgiveness and eternal life in His Name for nothing, totally free, gratis.

Yet I also agree with you, we have to warn people about the cost aswell, as our Lord did, but remember that He knew exactly what was in a man's heart, and He lay bare the unwillingness in certain cases to leave all behind and follow Him. In other cases He didn't need to do that, He came to Zacheus who willingly left all behind and followed Him. He comforted the paralytic in the first instance with the fact that his sins were forgiven him when he saw his faith, before he even healed him. He said 'Come to Me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' aswell as 'If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.' We shouldn't pretend He only said the latter and forget the former, more comforting words of our Lord.

So our aim should not be to discourage or to heap burdens indiscriminately of who it is we are facing, but mainly that they put their trust in Jesus Christ and receive the Holy Spirit which will enable them to live a life of self-sacrifice. But don't forget God came to justify the ungodly, Jesus came to call sinners - not the righteous - to repentance. All that is needed is that people recognise that 'the ungodly' is them, and Jesus Christ came to justify and save exactly those people, and they put their faith in Him. Wouldn't you want to see 7 billion people come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and saved for all of eternity?! If we have any charity in our hearts for a fallen world, like the Lord Himself had, we should love to see everyone saved.