Do Numbers Matter ?

General Christian Theology
Paul
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Paul »

RZehr wrote: Do you have first hand experience with any Anabaptist? Or is your opinion only based on Amish documentaries and the internet?
There are no Anabaptists in the Netherlands (apart from extremely liberal), so no I don't have any personal experience with them. But no my experience is not just from Amish docs. I have a Martyrs mirror at home which I've frequently read, and I've watched a 'just war' debate by David Bercot and Dean Taylor - who I consider mainstream Anabaptist? - and a series of Dean Taylor on the history of Anabaptism. It might not substitute for personal experience, but I do think it gives a decent impression of Anabaptism.
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appleman2006
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by appleman2006 »

Paul wrote:
RZehr wrote: Do you have first hand experience with any Anabaptist? Or is your opinion only based on Amish documentaries and the internet?
There are no Anabaptists in the Netherlands (apart from extremely liberal), so no I don't have any personal experience with them. But no my experience is not just from Amish docs. I have a Martyrs mirror at home which I've frequently read, and I've watched a 'just war' debate by David Bercot and Dean Taylor - who I consider mainstream Anabaptist? - and a series of Dean Taylor on the history of Anabaptism. It might not substitute for personal experience, but I do think it gives a decent impression of Anabaptism.
Interesting. That certainly puts a different perspective on the "frozen chosen in your area" than I had. ;) I appreciate you telling us a bit about where you come from as it helps give perspective to your posts. The fact that you frequently read the Martyr's Mirror and you are somewhat familiar with what Bercot and Taylor have to say, puts you miles ahead of most Anabaptists I am afraid. If you ever get to Canada I would love to have you look me up. I think we could have some pretty good discussions together.
I am blessed to hear that there is faith such as yours still in the Netherlands.
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appleman2006
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by appleman2006 »

cmbl wrote:In my time in theologically conservative evangelical Protestant circles, I think there was an undercurrent of pride to which I succumbed: "I thank you God that I am not like other men, like this liberal welcoming unrepentant homosexuals into an almost-empty church. Our churches and campus ministries are growing. We teach the right stuff."

When I awoke to the fact that the way I was living, and the way the other young men around me were living, put us outside the kingdom of God, I had to change my way of life; my religious affiliation to a much smaller band of Christianity; and my attitude toward numbers.

Numbers matter, but they are not a substitute for repentance and the amendment of life. Because numbers matter, I would be uneasy to hear an almost-all ethnic Anabaptist church reassuring themselves that they care about quality, not quantity.
I especially agree with your last statement.
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RZehr
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by RZehr »

Paul wrote:
RZehr wrote: Do you have first hand experience with any Anabaptist? Or is your opinion only based on Amish documentaries and the internet?
There are no Anabaptists in the Netherlands (apart from extremely liberal), so no I don't have any personal experience with them. But no my experience is not just from Amish docs. I have a Martyrs mirror at home which I've frequently read, and I've watched a 'just war' debate by David Bercot and Dean Taylor - who I consider mainstream Anabaptist? - and a series of Dean Taylor on the history of Anabaptism. It might not substitute for personal experience, but I do think it gives a decent impression of Anabaptism.
Thanks. From what I know of them, I consider David Bercot and Dean Taylor to be quite good.
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Valerie
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Valerie »

appleman2006 wrote:
Paul wrote:
RZehr wrote: Do you have first hand experience with any Anabaptist? Or is your opinion only based on Amish documentaries and the internet?
There are no Anabaptists in the Netherlands (apart from extremely liberal), so no I don't have any personal experience with them. But no my experience is not just from Amish docs. I have a Martyrs mirror at home which I've frequently read, and I've watched a 'just war' debate by David Bercot and Dean Taylor - who I consider mainstream Anabaptist? - and a series of Dean Taylor on the history of Anabaptism. It might not substitute for personal experience, but I do think it gives a decent impression of Anabaptism.
Interesting. That certainly puts a different perspective on the "frozen chosen in your area" than I had. ;) I appreciate you telling us a bit about where you come from as it helps give perspective to your posts. The fact that you frequently read the Martyr's Mirror and you are somewhat familiar with what Bercot and Taylor have to say, puts you miles ahead of most Anabaptists I am afraid. If you ever get to Canada I would love to have you look me up. I think we could have some pretty good discussions together.
I am blessed to hear that there is faith such as yours still in the Netherlands.
I am equally blessed to hear this kind of faith exists in the Netherlands-
It would be great if Paul would share much more of his own background in the faith, and also about the Netherlands- all I know is 'hearsay' but I really wondered after reading his (your's, Paul) faith how he got to know about, and study about the Anabaptists, how introduced to them there in the Netherlands, and also about the faith in that part of the world presently.
Purty please??? Paul???
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Paul
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Paul »

Sudsy wrote:Paul, did you get a chance to view Spurgeon's sermon that I gave a link to in that previous post ?

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols19-21/chs1159.pdf
Hello brother, I read the entire sermon today and I have to say I was very impressed. That's a powerful sermon, sharp like a two edged sword, I think I'll share it with a friend that is struggling with particular sins. This ought to stir up even the most dulled consciences, and I wholeheartedly agree that even though the Gospel is free, it comes with a very high cost. I love how he combines the two, the free offer of grace to come to Christ, and yet the high price we have to pay to follow Jesus Christ.

But you see this is a price that we actually can pay. In my own experience, I paid the price to follow Christ, because I saw Him to be worth eternally more than any temporal thing. But I could do so, because Christ enabled me to do so, I had the will and prayed hard to Him to give me the strength. One example for me is smoking, I smoked for about 9 years, and no matter what I tried, I could not quit. I just had no strength to quit at all, I loved my cigarette too much - it was like a buddy to me. I did give it a few attempts but they all failed within a month. But when I came to faith, I quit at once, because I wanted to follow Christ and live a holy life - and He enabled me to actually do so. It was a price I could pay, I wanted to pay, and He gave me the strength to actually do so. I've quit smoking for 5 years now, and I know I couldn't have done it in my own strength.

But my question is, what happens when free grace leaves this picture, when Christs enabling power leaves it. Then aren't we left with an impossible burden of living a holy life in our own strength? You see that's what I meanth with putting the cart before the horse in one of my previous posts, that's a price we can't pay. And if that is preached, either openly or implied, it won't bring forth godly fruit to the honour and glory of God. No true converts will come to Jesus Christ in true repentance to live a new life, but what it will do is it will lay upon burdens that are too heavy to carry and create pharisees that try to earn their favour with God in the hope to get to heaven. And if that's the focus, no wonder Evangelism isn't at the top of the priority list.
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Ernie
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Ernie »

RZehr wrote:
Paul wrote:
RZehr wrote: Do you have first hand experience with any Anabaptist? Or is your opinion only based on Amish documentaries and the internet?
There are no Anabaptists in the Netherlands (apart from extremely liberal), so no I don't have any personal experience with them. But no my experience is not just from Amish docs. I have a Martyrs mirror at home which I've frequently read, and I've watched a 'just war' debate by David Bercot and Dean Taylor - who I consider mainstream Anabaptist? - and a series of Dean Taylor on the history of Anabaptism. It might not substitute for personal experience, but I do think it gives a decent impression of Anabaptism.
Thanks. From what I know of them, I consider David Bercot and Dean Taylor to be quite good.
They are definitely not mainstream. They are much more like the early Anabaptists than what either the conservative Anabaptists or the mainstream Anabaptists are.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
RZehr
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by RZehr »

Ernie wrote:
RZehr wrote:
Paul wrote:
There are no Anabaptists in the Netherlands (apart from extremely liberal), so no I don't have any personal experience with them. But no my experience is not just from Amish docs. I have a Martyrs mirror at home which I've frequently read, and I've watched a 'just war' debate by David Bercot and Dean Taylor - who I consider mainstream Anabaptist? - and a series of Dean Taylor on the history of Anabaptism. It might not substitute for personal experience, but I do think it gives a decent impression of Anabaptism.
Thanks. From what I know of them, I consider David Bercot and Dean Taylor to be quite good.
They are definitely not mainstream. They are much more like the early Anabaptists than what either the conservative Anabaptists or the mainstream Anabaptists are.
I don't disagree with that.
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Sudsy
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Sudsy »

Paul wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Paul, did you get a chance to view Spurgeon's sermon that I gave a link to in that previous post ?

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols19-21/chs1159.pdf
Hello brother, I read the entire sermon today and I have to say I was very impressed. That's a powerful sermon, sharp like a two edged sword, I think I'll share it with a friend that is struggling with particular sins. This ought to stir up even the most dulled consciences, and I wholeheartedly agree that even though the Gospel is free, it comes with a very high cost. I love how he combines the two, the free offer of grace to come to Christ, and yet the high price we have to pay to follow Jesus Christ.

But you see this is a price that we actually can pay. In my own experience, I paid the price to follow Christ, because I saw Him to be worth eternally more than any temporal thing. But I could do so, because Christ enabled me to do so, I had the will and prayed hard to Him to give me the strength. One example for me is smoking, I smoked for about 9 years, and no matter what I tried, I could not quit. I just had no strength to quit at all, I loved my cigarette too much - it was like a buddy to me. I did give it a few attempts but they all failed within a month. But when I came to faith, I quit at once, because I wanted to follow Christ and live a holy life - and He enabled me to actually do so. It was a price I could pay, I wanted to pay, and He gave me the strength to actually do so. I've quit smoking for 5 years now, and I know I couldn't have done it in my own strength.

But my question is, what happens when free grace leaves this picture, when Christs enabling power leaves it. Then aren't we left with an impossible burden of living a holy life in our own strength? You see that's what I meanth with putting the cart before the horse in one of my previous posts, that's a price we can't pay. And if that is preached, either openly or implied, it won't bring forth godly fruit to the honour and glory of God. No true converts will come to Jesus Christ in true repentance to live a new life, but what it will do is it will lay upon burdens that are too heavy to carry and create pharisees that try to earn their favour with God in the hope to get to heaven. And if that's the focus, no wonder Evangelism isn't at the top of the priority list.
Amen. To me what you are talking about is whether or not one is born again. Here is a Mennonite explanation of what being born again means in terms of it being an experience of entering into the Kingdom of God -
https://churchofgodinchristmennonite.ne ... born-again

And here is another Mennonite article from another source that says that this being born again does not always come as a moment in time of sudden conversion experience but can be the result, over time, of being changed by Jesus - http://mennoworld.org/2014/03/13/the-wo ... orn-again/

Here is a quote from this article -
There are some of us who, after years of knowing Jesus, still aren’t sure exactly what we think about him. We don’t know exactly what we believe. And yet, he has changed our lives. Slowly. Somehow. We are more and more defined by our encounters with him. More and more motivated by our love for him. And this, too, is a path of discipleship worth walking.
I suspect the latter article here is one many Anabaptists relate to as most have been raised in church settings. I have also heard some relate being born again to the time they were immersed or sprinkled and joined the church.

So Paul, is your concern that some of us (raised in church folk) could pick up on the habits of other professing Christians and are really relying on our good living, according to Jesus ways, to save us ? Some may not have actually experienced God's grace in a dynamic way like you did with smoking. My father had a similar initial experience when he was converted. Immediately he was delivered from habits he could never break. For him, smoking and foul language changed over night. I believe local churches should have many of these type of conversion stories if we are being evangelists.

And I think scripture says there are definite signs that we are born from above. I think one of these being Jesus heart for lost souls. If we don't have this tug at our heart, then do we really have a changed heart (born of the Spirit) ? I think I'll start a thread on scriptural signs you have been born again.

Glad you enjoyed that sermon of Spurgeon's. I have read it more than once and will again as prior to this I wasn't sold on approaching evangelism from a counting the cost view as this being working up the soil.
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Neto
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Re: Do Numbers Matter ?

Post by Neto »

I hesitated to get involved in this thread, partly because I have been very busy with work, and didn’t feel that I could devote the time necessary to do so in a worthwhile manner, and maybe partly because I saw that there would be conflict, and I wanted to avoid it. But now I’m home sick again, and so I’ll stick my neck out anyway. I would like to respond to a couple of comments from page 1 of this thread. Because so much water has passed under the bridge since then, I have included the date & time of the posts.

03-14-2017 9:10 PM
Ernie wrote:Here is something I wrote this evening in preparation for a topic. It struck me that it fits in here fairly well.

".... Jesus never gives the idea that whole villages will respond to the Gospel. It even seems like Jesus gave individual tests to those who wanted to follow him to see if they were really willing to pay the price. For one man it was selling all that he had. If Jesus had asked that rich young ruler to agree that his coming death would grant him forgiveness of all sin, the rich young ruler might have become a “Christian”. Many in the crowds who followed Jesus looking for loaves and fishes would have been glad to mentally agree that Jesus was going to die for their sins so they could go to heaven.
Do you see the difference? ...."
I have witnessed what is sometimes referred to as ‘people movements”, where whole villages or peoples turn to Christ at once. And I have seen some individuals of those groups turn back. But I have also seen missionaries turn away from Christ. And I have seen the changes in the lives of individuals who were “just one number” out of the whole group that turned to Christ at once. (To be sure, I have also seen individuals turn to Christ against everything their culture tells them. But the constant is that God is graciously bringing people to himself. It reminds me of a song by Linda Rich, where she says: “And I’ll keep right on searching til You find me.” We may search for God, but HE finds us.)

03-15-2017 3:02 AM
Paul wrote:... not so many people are interested to even hear anything about sin, let alone feel the need to have them forgiven or to be mindful about eternity. Most people simply live to enjoy the here-and-now. ....
This reminds me of something a Brazilian missionary once told me. He was telling me about a conversation he had with a woman in his supporting congregation, and how he finally told her that she did not want to go to heaven – she just wanted a good life here, one that didn’t cost her anything. He told her that no amount of counseling would help her until she wanted Christ more than she wanted anything else.

The question of the thread is “Do Numbers Matter?. Just remember that each one of those numbers is a human soul, someone for whom Christ died. So do those “numbers” matter to Jesus? Certainly so – He died for them. (We might also do well to recall that we are also one of those numbers. Has it been so long that we cannot remember the wonder of the Gracious God?) But if the question is whether we should judge our efforts to tell the Good News as successful or not based on numbers, I would say It depends. If we take the “quality not quantity” position because it makes us feel better, then maybe we need to examine our efforts more critically. But if in spite of years of perseverance there is still not one person who turns to Christ, we may still have fulfilled our responsibility to tell the Gospel. I know a case where the missionaries worked in a village for 27 years before the first lasting conversion. The mission wanted to move them elsewhere; they “stubbornly” insisted that they would stay there. But oh, when the change came. Almost the entire village turned to Christ in a matter of weeks. Then this couple were no longer “stubborn”, they were now the example of “perseverance”. But the God who is gracious knew all along what was happening, how the Gospel was getting into the hearts of the people. Can anyone say that those people did not “count the costs” of following Christ? Many of them had been counting the costs all their lives. They had just not been using the right kind of math.
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