Modern day Israel

[Valerie]

There are many things that are dividing the church at Large. My feeling is that it is causing unbelievers to assume that we really don't know truth because we can't even agree with one another.

There are Messianic Jews today that will teach that Israel becoming a nation again is fulfillment of prophecies for example Ezekiel 36, just for one. I know the Orthodox Church believes that that was a fulfillment that spiritual Israel fulfilled, that the church became the Israel of God as in Galatians 6:16. And that every reference in the New testament regarding the elect of God was pertaining to Jews or gentiles that became Born again believers.

Where are Anabaptist at with this in this present day?
I'm personally struggling with this as I used to believe that Israel becoming a nation was according to prophecy that I agree now with the Orthodox that that didn't pertain to geographical modern day Israel but to the church that embraced Jesus Christ.

Any thoughts on this and where do you stand in your particular Anabaptist denominations?

[mike]

There are many things that are dividing the church at Large. My feeling is that it is causing unbelievers to assume that we really don't know truth because we can't even agree with one another.

There are Messianic Jews today that will teach that Israel becoming a nation again is fulfillment of prophecies for example Ezekiel 36, just for one. I know the Orthodox Church believes that that was a fulfillment that spiritual Israel fulfilled, that the church became the Israel of God as in Galatians 6:16. And that every reference in the New testament regarding the elect of God was pertaining to Jews or gentiles that became Born again believers.

Where are Anabaptist at with this in this present day?
I'm personally struggling with this as I used to believe that Israel becoming a nation was according to prophecy that I agree now with the Orthodox that that didn't pertain to geographical modern day Israel but to the church that embraced Jesus Christ.

Any thoughts on this and where do you stand in your particular Anabaptist denominations?

Thankfully, it is not really a divisive issue these days, in my opinion. The fact that Anabaptists don't support war and violence gives many of them hesitation about lending overt political support for the nation of Israel, even though some of them, like many evangelicals, feel modern Israel is a fulfillment of end time prophecy or are sympathetic toward it for other reasons. A few are very vocal about support for modern Israel. But I think they are a small minority.

[RZehr]

There are many things that are dividing the church at Large. My feeling is that it is causing unbelievers to assume that we really don't know truth because we can't even agree with one another.

There are Messianic Jews today that will teach that Israel becoming a nation again is fulfillment of prophecies for example Ezekiel 36, just for one. I know the Orthodox Church believes that that was a fulfillment that spiritual Israel fulfilled, that the church became the Israel of God as in Galatians 6:16. And that every reference in the New testament regarding the elect of God was pertaining to Jews or gentiles that became Born again believers.

Where are Anabaptist at with this in this present day?
I'm personally struggling with this as I used to believe that Israel becoming a nation was according to prophecy that I agree now with the Orthodox that that didn't pertain to geographical modern day Israel but to the church that embraced Jesus Christ.

Any thoughts on this and where do you stand in your particular Anabaptist denominations?

I do not think that the nation state of Israel or the Jews have any special role left to fill. As far as I'm concerned Israel is no different than any other nation, and the Hebrews are no different than any other group of people.

I do have one smart and educated (Phd.) friend that is utterly convinced otherwise. And he has moved to Israel and has lived there for close to 20 years. When I discuss this topic with him, I can be swayed a bit. So I'm not determined that my understanding is correct. I am more bothered by the side effects that I see when people do believe Israel is special, and the way it effects their thinking in world events in ways that I think are not conducive to Biblical NT Christian living.

[mike]

I do not think that the nation state of Israel or the Jews have any special role left to fill. As far as I'm concerned Israel is no different than any other nation, and the Hebrews are no different than any other group of people.

I do have one smart and educated (Phd.) friend that is utterly convinced otherwise. And he has moved to Israel and has lived there for close to 20 years. When I discuss this topic with him, I can be swayed a bit. So I'm not determined that my understanding is correct. I am more bothered by the side effects that I see when people do believe Israel is special, and the way it effects their thinking in world events in ways that I think are not conducive to Biblical NT Christian living.

My thoughts exactly.

[temporal1]

RZehr:
.. So I'm not determined that my understanding is correct. ..

[Ken]

I tend to agree with RZehr.

There was a time when I ate up a lot of the very pro-Israel narrative and history that is so common in this country from novels like Exodus and The Source. I have family who lived and worked there and who would travel there to participate in various biblical historical digs and such. I’ve come to realize that those stories weren’t necessarily inaccurate. But mostly just told one side of the story.

These days I’ve kind of grown weary with the dominance of the place in our national narrative. There is no other small county that captures remotely as much attention in the US media and culture. Not even close. And it seems to me that Israeli policies vis a vis the Palestinians is just going to slowly drive the rest of the world against it and end up with us holding the bag and supporting an increasingly less free and more authoritarian nation there. I think unqualified US support for Israel will only lead to more war and violence in the future. Military technology is advancing rapidly and eventually the Palestinians will acquire the ability to blow up whole Israeli neighborhoods or even cities. And then what?

My magic solution would be a 2-state solution. But not the separate Jewish and Palestinian states that people envision when that term is used. Rather, two democratic and multi-ethnic states. A multi-ethnic Jewish state, Israel, that has active and vibrant Palestinian Muslim and Christian minorities. And a multi-ethnic Palestinian state with a Muslim minority that has vibrant and active Jewish and Christian minorities. Which would probably need to be implemented through serious de-militarization and international occupation for an extended period. That, will, of course, never happen. But it is the only type of solution I can imagine that would bring permanent and lasting peace. Of course I don’t have a magic wand so my opinions are worth exactly what you paid for them.

[Wade]

There are many things that are dividing the church at Large. My feeling is that it is causing unbelievers to assume that we really don't know truth because we can't even agree with one another.

There are Messianic Jews today that will teach that Israel becoming a nation again is fulfillment of prophecies for example Ezekiel 36, just for one. I know the Orthodox Church believes that that was a fulfillment that spiritual Israel fulfilled, that the church became the Israel of God as in Galatians 6:16. And that every reference in the New testament regarding the elect of God was pertaining to Jews or gentiles that became Born again believers.

Where are Anabaptist at with this in this present day?
I'm personally struggling with this as I used to believe that Israel becoming a nation was according to prophecy that I agree now with the Orthodox that that didn't pertain to geographical modern day Israel but to the church that embraced Jesus Christ.

Any thoughts on this and where do you stand in your particular Anabaptist denominations?

As far as I've seen in the ultra conservative end of things is we carry a focus on the kingdom of God, while Israel as a nation is simply a kingdom of this world.

[mike]

As far as I've seen in the ultra conservative end of things is we carry a focus on the kingdom of God, while Israel as a nation is simply a kingdom of this world.

As it ought to be.

[Valerie]

There are many things that are dividing the church at Large. My feeling is that it is causing unbelievers to assume that we really don't know truth because we can't even agree with one another.

There are Messianic Jews today that will teach that Israel becoming a nation again is fulfillment of prophecies for example Ezekiel 36, just for one. I know the Orthodox Church believes that that was a fulfillment that spiritual Israel fulfilled, that the church became the Israel of God as in Galatians 6:16. And that every reference in the New testament regarding the elect of God was pertaining to Jews or gentiles that became Born again believers.

Where are Anabaptist at with this in this present day?
I'm personally struggling with this as I used to believe that Israel becoming a nation was according to prophecy that I agree now with the Orthodox that that didn't pertain to geographical modern day Israel but to the church that embraced Jesus Christ.

Any thoughts on this and where do you stand in your particular Anabaptist denominations?

Thankfully, it is not really a divisive issue these days, in my opinion. The fact that Anabaptists don't support war and violence gives many of them hesitation about lending overt political support for the nation of Israel, even though some of them, like many evangelicals, feel modern Israel is a fulfillment of end time prophecy or are sympathetic toward it for other reasons. A few are very vocal about support for modern Israel. But I think they are a small minority.

Probably in your circles it's not a very divisive issue and I didn't mean to imply it's like a heated division. But it is really hard to relate to one another when there is such enthusiasm over what's happening in Israel and about prophecies being fulfilled, when I became informed that ancient Christianity believed those prophecies were already fulfilled when Christ came and the New Testament Church started. So when these conversations come up and then application of these prophetic passages are shared as if it's happening right now when prior to this it was perceived that those passages were fulfilled with the early church started it makes it very strange to say the least.

I would say especially if a lot of Christians believe that it's God Himself that started all this therefore it's a fulfillment of the passages

[Valerie]

There are many things that are dividing the church at Large. My feeling is that it is causing unbelievers to assume that we really don't know truth because we can't even agree with one another.

There are Messianic Jews today that will teach that Israel becoming a nation again is fulfillment of prophecies for example Ezekiel 36, just for one. I know the Orthodox Church believes that that was a fulfillment that spiritual Israel fulfilled, that the church became the Israel of God as in Galatians 6:16. And that every reference in the New testament regarding the elect of God was pertaining to Jews or gentiles that became Born again believers.

Where are Anabaptist at with this in this present day?
I'm personally struggling with this as I used to believe that Israel becoming a nation was according to prophecy that I agree now with the Orthodox that that didn't pertain to geographical modern day Israel but to the church that embraced Jesus Christ.

Any thoughts on this and where do you stand in your particular Anabaptist denominations?

As far as I've seen in the ultra conservative end of things is we carry a focus on the kingdom of God, while Israel as a nation is simply a kingdom of this world.

That's true, but if people believed that God is doing this work in Israel to fulfill the prophecies, then I guess they would see that as a kingdom of God work