Discipleship and New Birth - Is order important?

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Ernie
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Discipleship and New Birth - Is order important?

Post by Ernie »

From this thread... viewtopic.php?f=4&t=413
Ernie wrote: Perhaps we need to start another thread about Discipleship and New Birth and whether it matters which one comes first.
Ernie wrote:
Neto wrote:
Ernie wrote: I assume that at some point in your interactions with natives in foreign missionary settings, you would encourage them to be kind to their neighbors, deal honestly, and not steal from others, even before they were committed Christians.
Just because God would give you the power and grace to interact with them while they are mean and dishonest, does not mean a person should wait till they are a Christian to teach them what God wants.

Just curious if you would wait till after they were Christians to start talking to them about modesty or if that is something you would talk to them about before they became a Christian?
We didn’t do any of these things. There is the witness of the Holy Spirit, both by example, and also by the image of God in their own life & culture. They already know that being unkind, dishonest, stealing, fighting, raping, killing – all of these things – they already know that these things are wrong (at least in relation to another person of their own tribe). Maybe some will think that our approach was off, but we didn’t see any benefit in trying to make them live like Christians before they had Christ in their life. Seems to me that creates false Christians.

Edited to add: Or is this the sort of example you are thinking of:
We did not allow other children to play war games at our home on the mission base. If they insisted, we sent them home.
Yes. Your last example is the kind of thing I am thinking of. I don't see any difference between asking children to not play war games or asking them to wear a shirt when they come to play.

Traditionally, Evangelicals have thought in terms of presenting the Gospel to people and try to help them become saved, and then disciple them. My experiences the last year having Bible studies with pagan Chinese is to teach what it means to be a disciple and explain how God miraculously saves those who choose to be a disciple. I encouraged my students to read the Bible, pray, love their enemies, etc. I let the Lord decide how and when he wants to save them. I don't feel like that is my responsibility.
My experience mirrors that of a friend who is hiring Somalian Muslim refugees and training them in Kingdom of God principles at the same time he is training them in Graphic Design.
Neto wrote:
Ernie wrote: ... about Discipleship and New Birth and whether it matters which one comes first.
Reminds me of a little book by Donald McGavran about church growth principles. (I cannot recall the name of the book.) He was somewhat controversial, even in Evangelical circles, because his studies had shown that discipleship was more of a determining factor than a person's reason's for "becoming a Christian". He found that some men who had become leaders in the church (in India, as I recall) had initially been "converted" so that their children could attend the missionary school, which was much better equipped than the national schools of that period. (The schools didn't actually require that the parents be Christian, but it was a common misconception held by the native people.) Basically, discipleship was the determining factor in the spiritual growth of "converts", no matter the reason for, or sincerity of, the "conversions".

Edited to add: The book I'm thinking of may have been Bridges of God. Dr. McGavran was a professor at Fuller School of World Mission, where my own professor got his doctorate in anthropology, and so we read a number of his books in our training.
Sudsy wrote:
Ernie wrote: Perhaps we need to start another thread about Discipleship and New Birth and whether it matters which one comes first.
That could help those of us the come from an Evangelical approach to making disciples. I think putting either of these first can have it's pitfalls. Some who claim to have an initial beginning point of salvation don't pursue being a Christ follower. Others decide to be a Christ follower and take on that challenge but have never been born of the Spirit.
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Re: Discipleship and New Birth - Is order important?

Post by joshuabgood »

Very interesting question. FWIW not long ago I was in a leadership course and research be presented articulated a similar thing. The proposal was, don't worry so much about changing people's minds or motivations as a leader, change the behaviors first and once folks see the efficacy of the new "behavior" the mind shifts afterward.

However, I think in some cases it is a chicken or egg question. For some people compliance precedes mind shift and for others they won't comply until they see mind moves.
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Re: Discipleship and New Birth - Is order important?

Post by Wayne in Maine »

The question assumes that the "New Birth" is a precisely fixed event and it neglects "repentance" (metanoia, the changing of one's mind).

Jesus commanded us to "go make disciples" telling us to baptize them and to teach them to obey all He commanded. In Luke it is recorded that after His resurrection he reiterated this saying "repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his [Christ's] name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem". We read that just a short time later that Peter, in Jerusalem, after proclaiming the good news of Jesus' resurrection, told the gathered crowd to "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

This all suggests that once hears the good news of Jesus, and recognizes it such that one is "cut to the heart", repentance and baptism must follow, after which one will receive the Holy Spirit. This whole process of recognizing that Jesus is who he said He was, and being "cut to the heart", and changing one's mind and being baptized and receiving the Holy Spirit is summed up in the metaphor "born again" or "born of water and of the Spirit". How precisely does this occur though? Jesus answered Nicodemus: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” It happens, you can see that it happens but you really can't see how.

What then is our part in making disciples? We sow seed by proclaiming the message of the kingdom. What grows from that sowing we invite to join us in following Jesus as His pupils, baptizing them and teaching them the things Jesus commanded us all to do. Some will believe for a while, but will fail when they are tested. Others "as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life" and they will not mature. But those who "hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart" grow with patience and produce fruit.
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Re: Discipleship and New Birth - Is order important?

Post by MaxPC »

Wayne in Maine wrote:The question assumes that the "New Birth" is a precisely fixed event and it neglects "repentance" (metanoia, the changing of one's mind).

Jesus commanded us to "go make disciples" telling us to baptize them and to teach them to obey all He commanded. In Luke it is recorded that after His resurrection he reiterated this saying "repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his [Christ's] name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem". We read that just a short time later that Peter, in Jerusalem, after proclaiming the good news of Jesus' resurrection, told the gathered crowd to "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

This all suggests that once hears the good news of Jesus, and recognizes it such that one is "cut to the heart", repentance and baptism must follow, after which one will receive the Holy Spirit. This whole process of recognizing that Jesus is who he said He was, and being "cut to the heart", and changing one's mind and being baptized and receiving the Holy Spirit is summed up in the metaphor "born again" or "born of water and of the Spirit". How precisely does this occur though? Jesus answered Nicodemus: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” It happens, you can see that it happens but you really can't see how.

What then is our part in making disciples? We sow seed by proclaiming the message of the kingdom. What grows from that sowing we invite to join us in following Jesus as His pupils, baptizing them and teaching them the things Jesus commanded us all to do. Some will believe for a while, but will fail when they are tested. Others "as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life" and they will not mature. But those who "hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart" grow with patience and produce fruit.
I agree with all of this. Allow me to add that proclamation of the Good News is also achieved with living examples of changed hearts and ongoing conversion/metanoia/conversatio morum.

God uses our example of life as a teaching tool, evangelization tool, and ultimately and most importantly a tool for our own growth in our relationship with Him. Examining our own example hopefully leads us to do better for the sake of God's Kingdom and to become "good seed bearing fruit".
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Re: Discipleship and New Birth - Is order important?

Post by Ernie »

Wayne in Maine wrote:The question assumes that the "New Birth" is a precisely fixed event and it neglects "repentance" (metanoia, the changing of one's mind).
These are all good points, and the OP title is probably worded wrongly so let me try again.
Does it matter what order the various components of the good news of Jesus are taught?
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Re: Discipleship and New Birth - Is order important?

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:The question assumes that the "New Birth" is a precisely fixed event and it neglects "repentance" (metanoia, the changing of one's mind).
These are all good points, and the OP title is probably worded wrongly so let me try again.
Does it matter what order the various components of the good news of Jesus are taught?
Yes.

I don't think teaching a specific church's standards and cultural applications should come first.

And many worldly people are very attracted to those things. A lot of people are attracted to the "simple" life of the Amish.

But I don't think using a horse and buggy and only using your smartphone once you walk to the end of your driveway is the path God laid out in scripture for salvation.
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Re: Discipleship and New Birth - Is order important?

Post by Hats Off »

I believe that for many people "New Birth" is a process, not an event. In many cases we expect discipleship to precede "New Birth". For Paul, of course, being a disciple came immediately following conversion.
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Re: Discipleship and New Birth - Is order important?

Post by Hats Off »

Ernie wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:The question assumes that the "New Birth" is a precisely fixed event and it neglects "repentance" (metanoia, the changing of one's mind).
These are all good points, and the OP title is probably worded wrongly so let me try again.
Does it matter what order the various components of the good news of Jesus are taught?
I would think context matters - are we talking to "children of the church" or someone who has been unchurched. When the New Tribes Mission goes out they insist that you have to tell the good news from the beginning, and they use a chronological approach. It appears that many tribal people respond when they hear the story of creation and the fall and after that they are very open to the actual news of Jesus. It seems that when they grasp Jesus' examples, they will follow His ways intuitively.

When talking with "children of the church", we can start with obedience. I don't think anyone would be foolish enough to start with stressing "horse and buggy" or "conventions of cell phone use" with an "outsider" and hopefully not with their own children. Even when talking with a Jew, we would start at a different place in the conversation than we would with the other two.
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Re: Discipleship and New Birth - Is order important?

Post by MaxPC »

Hats Off wrote:
Ernie wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:The question assumes that the "New Birth" is a precisely fixed event and it neglects "repentance" (metanoia, the changing of one's mind).
These are all good points, and the OP title is probably worded wrongly so let me try again.
Does it matter what order the various components of the good news of Jesus are taught?
I would think context matters - are we talking to "children of the church" or someone who has been unchurched. When the New Tribes Mission goes out they insist that you have to tell the good news from the beginning, and they use a chronological approach. It appears that many tribal people respond when they hear the story of creation and the fall and after that they are very open to the actual news of Jesus. It seems that when they grasp Jesus' examples, they will follow His ways intuitively.

When talking with "children of the church", we can start with obedience. I don't think anyone would be foolish enough to start with stressing "horse and buggy" or "conventions of cell phone use" with an "outsider" and hopefully not with their own children. Even when talking with a Jew, we would start at a different place in the conversation than we would with the other two.
:up:
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Re: Discipleship and New Birth - Is order important?

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Hats Off wrote: I would think context matters - are we talking to "children of the church" or someone who has been unchurched. When the New Tribes Mission goes out they insist that you have to tell the good news from the beginning, and they use a chronological approach. It appears that many tribal people respond when they hear the story of creation and the fall and after that they are very open to the actual news of Jesus. It seems that when they grasp Jesus' examples, they will follow His ways intuitively.

When talking with "children of the church", we can start with obedience. I don't think anyone would be foolish enough to start with stressing "horse and buggy" or "conventions of cell phone use" with an "outsider" and hopefully not with their own children. Even when talking with a Jew, we would start at a different place in the conversation than we would with the other two.
Context matters, as does differentiating between the Old Covenant and the new, distinguishing between history and allegory and differentiating the "good new's" of the New Testament and the commands of Jesus.

The most common problem in this is presenting the bible as a single book with a single theme and author. The other problem, which is bigger, is that Protestant/Evangelical Christianity has fabricated something they call "the Gospel", synthesizing several historic events, theological insights and statements of Jesus and the apostles into something that really does not exist in the "gospels" of the New Testament or the writings of the apostles.

We must consider what of the messages of Jesus and the apostles is "good news" for someone in a particular situation (I like to think of that as sowing the right seed), and if that draws them in, then we can move on to other things Jesus taught.
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