Ernie wrote: Perhaps we need to start another thread about Discipleship and New Birth and whether it matters which one comes first.
Ernie wrote:Yes. Your last example is the kind of thing I am thinking of. I don't see any difference between asking children to not play war games or asking them to wear a shirt when they come to play.Neto wrote:We didn’t do any of these things. There is the witness of the Holy Spirit, both by example, and also by the image of God in their own life & culture. They already know that being unkind, dishonest, stealing, fighting, raping, killing – all of these things – they already know that these things are wrong (at least in relation to another person of their own tribe). Maybe some will think that our approach was off, but we didn’t see any benefit in trying to make them live like Christians before they had Christ in their life. Seems to me that creates false Christians.Ernie wrote: I assume that at some point in your interactions with natives in foreign missionary settings, you would encourage them to be kind to their neighbors, deal honestly, and not steal from others, even before they were committed Christians.
Just because God would give you the power and grace to interact with them while they are mean and dishonest, does not mean a person should wait till they are a Christian to teach them what God wants.
Just curious if you would wait till after they were Christians to start talking to them about modesty or if that is something you would talk to them about before they became a Christian?
Edited to add: Or is this the sort of example you are thinking of:
We did not allow other children to play war games at our home on the mission base. If they insisted, we sent them home.
Traditionally, Evangelicals have thought in terms of presenting the Gospel to people and try to help them become saved, and then disciple them. My experiences the last year having Bible studies with pagan Chinese is to teach what it means to be a disciple and explain how God miraculously saves those who choose to be a disciple. I encouraged my students to read the Bible, pray, love their enemies, etc. I let the Lord decide how and when he wants to save them. I don't feel like that is my responsibility.
My experience mirrors that of a friend who is hiring Somalian Muslim refugees and training them in Kingdom of God principles at the same time he is training them in Graphic Design.
Neto wrote:Reminds me of a little book by Donald McGavran about church growth principles. (I cannot recall the name of the book.) He was somewhat controversial, even in Evangelical circles, because his studies had shown that discipleship was more of a determining factor than a person's reason's for "becoming a Christian". He found that some men who had become leaders in the church (in India, as I recall) had initially been "converted" so that their children could attend the missionary school, which was much better equipped than the national schools of that period. (The schools didn't actually require that the parents be Christian, but it was a common misconception held by the native people.) Basically, discipleship was the determining factor in the spiritual growth of "converts", no matter the reason for, or sincerity of, the "conversions".Ernie wrote: ... about Discipleship and New Birth and whether it matters which one comes first.
Edited to add: The book I'm thinking of may have been Bridges of God. Dr. McGavran was a professor at Fuller School of World Mission, where my own professor got his doctorate in anthropology, and so we read a number of his books in our training.
Sudsy wrote:That could help those of us the come from an Evangelical approach to making disciples. I think putting either of these first can have it's pitfalls. Some who claim to have an initial beginning point of salvation don't pursue being a Christ follower. Others decide to be a Christ follower and take on that challenge but have never been born of the Spirit.Ernie wrote: Perhaps we need to start another thread about Discipleship and New Birth and whether it matters which one comes first.