Powerless Christianity

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Josh
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Re: Powerless Christianity

Post by Josh »

I view claims the dead were being raised in the 3rd century with great scepticism. I'm sure ten centuries from now, there will be lofty claims that in the 21st century, Christians were raising the dead--but where is God's power now in the 31st century??

The purpose of signs and wonders is to give credibility to Christianity and to point people to Christ. God has decided that signs and wonders aren't serving that purpose anymore, or at least the signs and wonders that us selfish men want aren't serving that purpose.

He wants us to follow the simple message of the gospel. He wants us to share that Jesus offers eternal life--instead of just a short term, temporary resurrection on earth. He wants us to be healed of our sins, not just healed of our temporal sicknesses.
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Sudsy
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Re: Powerless Christianity

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Josh wrote:I view claims the dead were being raised in the 3rd century with great scepticism. I'm sure ten centuries from now, there will be lofty claims that in the 21st century, Christians were raising the dead--but where is God's power now in the 31st century??

The purpose of signs and wonders is to give credibility to Christianity and to point people to Christ. God has decided that signs and wonders aren't serving that purpose anymore, or at least the signs and wonders that us selfish men want aren't serving that purpose.

He wants us to follow the simple message of the gospel. He wants us to share that Jesus offers eternal life--instead of just a short term, temporary resurrection on earth. He wants us to be healed of our sins, not just healed of our temporal sicknesses.
That is a fairly common view (or somewhat similar) I have heard and there are other views that believe it isn't a change in God's ways but rather it is the quality of our faith that blocks this from happening. I do think there is a very skeptical view today within much of Christianity regarding the supernatural. Perhaps we live in such an environment of believing only what we can intellectually prove is possible that we don't even expect much or anything outside of what we can't explain. Seems to me, if reports are correct (and some could be untrue), the supernatural healings do still occur but mainly in third world settings where people are more expectant of the supernatural. Do they have the faith of a child that we don't have here in North America ? This is something I wonder.

On Sunday we often sing this song that goes - 'show us show us your glory Lord' and I wonder just what people who sing this expect this glory to manifest itself. My guess is that it would scare us big time if (i.e. the place was shaken) if God displayed His glory and power in some supernatural way or we would quickly look for natural explanations (i.e. we had a local earthquake under the church building).

To me, the most powerful display of the supernatural is when God makes someone into a new creation in Christ Jesus and the manifestation of this change of heart goes beyond what man himself could do by just 'turning over a new leaf'. Sadly, I don't hear many of these stories coming out of our churches. The Gospel of the scriptures believed creates a radical change of direction and lifestyle and is not something that lacks this power.
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Josh
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Re: Powerless Christianity

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Considering the fastest growing branch of orthodox Christianity is Pentecostalism, which has a strong focus on signs and wonders, I would disagree that Christianity is uncomfortable with signs and wonders.

If anything, there is too much focus on it.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Powerless Christianity

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Josh wrote:Considering the fastest growing branch of orthodox Christianity is Pentecostalism, which has a strong focus on signs and wonders, I would disagree that Christianity is uncomfortable with signs and wonders.

If anything, there is too much focus on it.
Indeed, as Jesus said (which so characterizes this generation): "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah."
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Re: Powerless Christianity

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Wayne in Maine wrote: Indeed, as Jesus said (which so characterizes this generation): "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah."
Jonah seems to be a theme lately. Here's an interesting homily on the sign of Jonah.
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Sudsy
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Re: Powerless Christianity

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Wayne in Maine wrote:
Josh wrote:Considering the fastest growing branch of orthodox Christianity is Pentecostalism, which has a strong focus on signs and wonders, I would disagree that Christianity is uncomfortable with signs and wonders.

If anything, there is too much focus on it.
Indeed, as Jesus said (which so characterizes this generation): "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah."
Wasn't Jesus speaking of His resurrection from the dead as "the sign of Jonah" saying that if they were not convinced that His power to do signs and miracles was of God, then Jesus’ resurrection from the dead would be God’s chief sign that Jesus was their long-awaited Messiah and would establish Christ’s claims to deity ?

I don't think most today involved in the supernatural workings of God are doubting that these are sourced in God. Sometimes they may question where the source is. But rather they view Christianity as a supernatural relationship with God that anticipates the power (dunamis) of the Holy Spirit to manifest itself dynamically and obvious in the lives of believers. In spiritual giftings and in HS fruit that goes beyond natural capability.

So, to me, the sign of Jonah today will be the obvious same power that raised Christ from the dead that now dwells in us shining forth in an unmistakable way.
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Sudsy
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Re: Powerless Christianity

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A little more pondering outloud - pondering what is key to experiencing God's power active in our lives and was reminded of what Paul understood on the subject -

"We have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us." – 2 Corinthians 4:7

“But he said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.” 2 Corinthians 12:9

Basically until we admit to our constant need (our weakness being in clay vessels, sinners) of God's supernatural power operating in us and rely on it, we will not experience that power. As Paul put it so that Christ's power may rest (dwell, work, live) in me.

Perhaps the reason that God's power is not as obvious as it could be today is that we are heavily influenced to believe results depends mainly upon our own efforts when in Kingdom of God ways it is the opposite. So, prayer and fasting take a back seat to other methods to obtain what only the Spirit can produce through the means Jesus used.

Any and all participation on this welcomed.

Just ran across this that is helping - http://rickthomas.net/what-does-it-mean ... eaknesses/
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Powerless Christianity

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Sudsy wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote: Indeed, as Jesus said (which so characterizes this generation): "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah."
Wasn't Jesus speaking of His resurrection from the dead as "the sign of Jonah" saying that if they were not convinced that His power to do signs and miracles was of God, then Jesus’ resurrection from the dead would be God’s chief sign that Jesus was their long-awaited Messiah and would establish Christ’s claims to deity ?
"...the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and to test Him they asked him to show them a sign from heaven."

Jesus never said "that if they were not convinced that His power to do signs and miracles was of God, then Jesus’ resurrection from the dead would be God’s chief sign "

He said: "For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. "

That is, Jesus' resurrection was the only sign God would give.
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Sudsy
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Re: Powerless Christianity

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Wayne in Maine wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote: Indeed, as Jesus said (which so characterizes this generation): "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah."
Wasn't Jesus speaking of His resurrection from the dead as "the sign of Jonah" saying that if they were not convinced that His power to do signs and miracles was of God, then Jesus’ resurrection from the dead would be God’s chief sign that Jesus was their long-awaited Messiah and would establish Christ’s claims to deity ?
"...the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and to test Him they asked him to show them a sign from heaven."

Jesus never said "that if they were not convinced that His power to do signs and miracles was of God, then Jesus’ resurrection from the dead would be God’s chief sign "

He said: "For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. "

That is, Jesus' resurrection was the only sign God would give.
Agree Jesus did not say what you posted but in Matthew 12 it says that the Pharisees were not convinced His power was from God and thought it could be from satan. Yes they wanted further tests to prove His source of power.

To me, what Jesus then said, when they kept looking for proof, was this proof would be in the resurrection. It wasn't through further working of miracles that He would use to convince them but He continued in the following chapters to do signs and wonders. His statement about Jonah was not to put an end to the miraculous and the miraculous continued on in the early church. The Kingdom of God is one of supernatural power on display through the lives of believers filled with the Spirit. If the Kingdom of God is not a display of things supernatural then it is no different then what man can achieve in his own efforts to reflect man's concepts of righteousness.

Are you saying that because our current generation is also one that is wicked and adulterous that the only sign God is giving of His power is looking back on the resurrection ? I may be mis-understanding.
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Re: Powerless Christianity

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I heard a minister say tonight in a sermon that the love for Jesus Christ can overcome our tendency for self-preservation. I think that's a deep truth that is at the root of the issue, we love ourselves more than we love Jesus Christ, and we generally trust ourselves more than we trust Jesus Christ. For myself I know I don't trust the Lord nearly as much as I know I should. I don't have the right amount of faith in prayer that the Lord deserves from me, because I know He is faithful to hear my prayer, and He takes care of me, and yet I am still fearful about temporal things.

But, despite our weakness, our Lord teaches that we need to take up our cross, and be willing to literally lose our lives for Him. Because whosoever loses his life, shall gain it, but whosoever tries to hang onto his life, shall lose it. That cuts straight into our own desire and labour for self-preservation, for insurance and 'safety' in temporal things, doesn't it?

Matthew 16:24-25 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

But, even though reward is not the object, our Lord will reward those that faithfully take up their cross for Him. And that's something glorious I try to look forward to in the midst of my struggles to kill my flesh, carry my cross, and serve Him.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
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