Powerless Christianity

General Christian Theology
Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Powerless Christianity

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Sudsy wrote:
Most Christian groups I have been around have very little to no gifts of the Spirit, spoken of in the NT, operating in their groups. In this area, I have not heard much about earnestly seeking these gifts. Why ? They either believe these gifts were for the early church only or they are just too afraid of the supernatural to operate in this way (some weird , non-scriptual activites amongst charismatics have scared them off) or they believe the Christian life is more about our determination to follow Jesus outside of experiencing the supernatural power of the Spirit or ??
I see the gifts of the Spirit in operation all of the time. Just not the ones you seem to be looking for.

Remember most of the gifts are not that demonstrative and occur outside of meetings.

J.M.
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Paul
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Re: Powerless Christianity

Post by Paul »

These are some powerful questions to ponder.

I think one of the causes is really a lack of faith. When we focus on the Lord Jesus Christ, on His amazing Gospel and power, the enormity of His grace and love, then that faith will ultimately overcome the world, our own flesh and the devil, with all it's temptations and struggle, and bear fruit for Him.
But when we start looking at our circumstances more than Christ, worried about temporal cares, you name it - satan has a million different distractions - we move away from Jesus Christ, move away from Gods calling for our life, and our lives get more focused on self-preservation. And I speak from experience, it's really really easy to get distracted from Gods calling, and we are really really good in justifying our own fleshly will. But the [lack of] fruit for Gods Kingdom is basically the evidence that testifies against us - no matter how hard we try to justify our life - and is undeniable, to our shame.

Not last Sunday but the one before that, we had a new preacher in our congregation for the first time, and he had quite a strong sermon. One of the points he made was with a traffic sign of a roundabout and another sign with an arrow pointing up. His sermon was on 1 John, where John warns the believers not to deceive themselves that they have no sin, and that we should confess them to Christ and yet that when we live in wilful sin, we do not know Him.
He had the traffic signs as a visible aid, and said we are often 'roundabout' Christians, we might be true believers, but when we fall in sin, we go around and fall in the same sin again, and again, and again.. because we are trying to live - and to conquer sin - in our own strength and we keep going the same circle on that roundabout.
But when we look at Jesus Christ, when we look up, and we truly repent of sin and give our lives over to Him, then we can be freed from that vicious circle and enjoy that life of abundance through the power of His Spirit. Well just my thoughts.. God bless you all.
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Sudsy
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Re: Powerless Christianity

Post by Sudsy »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Most Christian groups I have been around have very little to no gifts of the Spirit, spoken of in the NT, operating in their groups. In this area, I have not heard much about earnestly seeking these gifts. Why ? They either believe these gifts were for the early church only or they are just too afraid of the supernatural to operate in this way (some weird , non-scriptual activites amongst charismatics have scared them off) or they believe the Christian life is more about our determination to follow Jesus outside of experiencing the supernatural power of the Spirit or ??
I see the gifts of the Spirit in operation all of the time. Just not the ones you seem to be looking for.

Remember most of the gifts are not that demonstrative and occur outside of meetings.

J.M.
A couple questions on this post -

1) Perhaps we have a different view on spiritual gifts. To me, HS gifts are ones that are not evident in a non-believer in Jesus as Lord. Dedicated muslims and even some good living atheists (humanly speaking) can be talented in various ways and at times seem to appear more Christlike than many Christians. My belief is that HS gifts are of the kind that stand out even from the best a non-believer may exhibit. I feel the same about HS fruit. So, is this your understanding of HS giftings ?

2) Can you give some examples of the HS in operation that you see all the time ? Can any of these be achieved through means other than by the Holy Spirit ?

3) When I look at what the NT says about Spiritual gifts, they appear very demonstrative to me. Also they are often for the benefit of all believers within a group setting. Perhaps you could elaborate on your last statement ?
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Sudsy
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Re: Powerless Christianity

Post by Sudsy »

Paul wrote:These are some powerful questions to ponder.

I think one of the causes is really a lack of faith. When we focus on the Lord Jesus Christ, on His amazing Gospel and power, the enormity of His grace and love, then that faith will ultimately overcome the world, our own flesh and the devil, with all it's temptations and struggle, and bear fruit for Him.
But when we start looking at our circumstances more than Christ, worried about temporal cares, you name it - satan has a million different distractions - we move away from Jesus Christ, move away from Gods calling for our life, and our lives get more focused on self-preservation. And I speak from experience, it's really really easy to get distracted from Gods calling, and we are really really good in justifying our own fleshly will. But the [lack of] fruit for Gods Kingdom is basically the evidence that testifies against us - no matter how hard we try to justify our life - and is undeniable, to our shame.

Not last Sunday but the one before that, we had a new preacher in our congregation for the first time, and he had quite a strong sermon. One of the points he made was with a traffic sign of a roundabout and another sign with an arrow pointing up. His sermon was on 1 John, where John warns the believers not to deceive themselves that they have no sin, and that we should confess them to Christ and yet that when we live in wilful sin, we do not know Him.
He had the traffic signs as a visible aid, and said we are often 'roundabout' Christians, we might be true believers, but when we fall in sin, we go around and fall in the same sin again, and again, and again.. because we are trying to live - and to conquer sin - in our own strength and we keep going the same circle on that roundabout.
But when we look at Jesus Christ, when we look up, and we truly repent of sin and give our lives over to Him, then we can be freed from that vicious circle and enjoy that life of abundance through the power of His Spirit. Well just my thoughts.. God bless you all.
Underlining in your post is mine. I have many times had a renewed attempt to do what you said in your opening statement. I can't say though that I have always did this relying on the power of the Holy Spirit. So, I get on this roundabout that this preacher spoke about and often end up discouraged over my failures.

Could it be that the main cause of repeated failures is when we don't ask and expect to receive supernatural power through the Holy Spirit to live a victorious and abundant Christian life. Looking back I think my tendency was to depend quite heavily on my own resolve to change. My own resolve to be more holy. My own resolve to be more obedient. And often ending up discouraged over my failings. I can't say that I was putting my faith in the power of the Holy Spirit and humbly giving way to His enabling power. Not to say that I just sit back and let the Holy Spirit work everything out but rather to walk hand in hand with the Spirit and not daring to walk apart from Him. A personal relationship with the Holy Spirit whom Jesus prayed the Father to send to us in His place.

I do recall times in my life where this concept of walking in tune with the Spirit was foremost in my resolve and I recall that period of abundant living right through some times of trouble. I need to get back to that way of living.

Any personal testimonies here on how you relate to the Holy Spirit's enabling power is welcomed.
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Josh
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Re: Powerless Christianity

Post by Josh »

Yes. We should have confidence and belief in God's ability and promise to turn us into good people.

As that happens, we will learn we didn't even really understand what a "good person" was.
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Valerie
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Re: Powerless Christianity

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Paul wrote:These are some powerful questions to ponder.

I think one of the causes is really a lack of faith. When we focus on the Lord Jesus Christ, on His amazing Gospel and power, the enormity of His grace and love, then that faith will ultimately overcome the world, our own flesh and the devil, with all it's temptations and struggle, and bear fruit for Him.
But when we start looking at our circumstances more than Christ, worried about temporal cares, you name it - satan has a million different distractions - we move away from Jesus Christ, move away from Gods calling for our life, and our lives get more focused on self-preservation. And I speak from experience, it's really really easy to get distracted from Gods calling, and we are really really good in justifying our own fleshly will. But the [lack of] fruit for Gods Kingdom is basically the evidence that testifies against us - no matter how hard we try to justify our life - and is undeniable, to our shame.

Not last Sunday but the one before that, we had a new preacher in our congregation for the first time, and he had quite a strong sermon. One of the points he made was with a traffic sign of a roundabout and another sign with an arrow pointing up. His sermon was on 1 John, where John warns the believers not to deceive themselves that they have no sin, and that we should confess them to Christ and yet that when we live in wilful sin, we do not know Him.
He had the traffic signs as a visible aid, and said we are often 'roundabout' Christians, we might be true believers, but when we fall in sin, we go around and fall in the same sin again, and again, and again.. because we are trying to live - and to conquer sin - in our own strength and we keep going the same circle on that roundabout.
But when we look at Jesus Christ, when we look up, and we truly repent of sin and give our lives over to Him, then we can be freed from that vicious circle and enjoy that life of abundance through the power of His Spirit. Well just my thoughts.. God bless you all.
Underlining in your post is mine. I have many times had a renewed attempt to do what you said in your opening statement. I can't say though that I have always did this relying on the power of the Holy Spirit. So, I get on this roundabout that this preacher spoke about and often end up discouraged over my failures.

Could it be that the main cause of repeated failures is when we don't ask and expect to receive supernatural power through the Holy Spirit to live a victorious and abundant Christian life. Looking back I think my tendency was to depend quite heavily on my own resolve to change. My own resolve to be more holy. My own resolve to be more obedient. And often ending up discouraged over my failings. I can't say that I was putting my faith in the power of the Holy Spirit and humbly giving way to His enabling power. Not to say that I just sit back and let the Holy Spirit work everything out but rather to walk hand in hand with the Spirit and not daring to walk apart from Him. A personal relationship with the Holy Spirit whom Jesus prayed the Father to send to us in His place.

I do recall times in my life where this concept of walking in tune with the Spirit was foremost in my resolve and I recall that period of abundant living right through some times of trouble. I need to get back to that way of living.

Any personal testimonies here on how you relate to the Holy Spirit's enabling power is welcomed.

Since the law (Mosaic) was to reveal how powerless we are over the flesh, thus when Jesus fulfilled the law, laying down His life and His blood was meant to cleanse us from our sins (and cover our sins), getting discouraged at our failures is part of the humbling we always need to be, and in appreciation for what Jesus did for us. Humility is an important characteristic of the Christian life. Think of who was justified- the Pharisee who compared himself to the sinner, or the sinner (publican) who beat his breast in discouragement saying "Be merciful to me, a sinner" This humbling ourselves and being made aware of 'our own' sins, and not looking at others sins, is what Jesus was teaching. I think the discouragement in itself is indicative of humbling one's soul- but then we don't stop there, we are thankful for what Jesus did for us!! Apostle Paul called himself 'the chief of sinners'. Let us always appreciate what Christ did for us in His passion.
If we WALK in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh. Our failings are a reminder that we need to ever be emptied of ourselves and distractions/the world so that we can be filled. And remember that His mercy is new every morning! The enemy loves to heap condemnation on us but we need to confess our sins, and have faith to believe that when we do, He is faithful to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We are to be ever mindful of His blood and what it means to us and for us. One reason I brought up the Lent fast is what I have learned about denying self through that period- I get so discouraged that I cannot even quit thinking about food! But it is a training to learn to deny yourself & passions- the Holy Spirit isn't meant to do everything for us- that is why we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
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Valerie
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Re: Powerless Christianity

Post by Valerie »

Was thinking again how often Jesus was wearied/grieved over lack of unbelief, lack of faith- how He said "how long must I suffer you!" (can you imagine hearing that?) also how He implied by the time of His return, there would be a lack of faith (Luke 18:8)-

I was mindful of this passage where He emphasizes WHY there is a lack of power and HOW we need this power and it is purposeful to do His works! Always, He emphasized what we 'could' do if we had faith, but He also taught the need for prayer and fasting. Think about it- why did Jesus Himself fast & pray in the wilderness for 40 days?:

14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,

15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.

16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
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Sudsy
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Re: Powerless Christianity

Post by Sudsy »

Thanks Valerie for these exhortations. Could we say then that fasting should be something quite common to our Christian walk throughout the year to develop our resistance (spiritual maturing), through the help of the Spirit, over fleshly desires (i.e. food, entertainment, computer time, etc) that can interfere with our walk with God ?

Following Christ's example, on-going prayer and fasting in a place of solitude is the means of being refueled or filled with the power of the Spirit.

Would you go so far as agreeing with the above statements or how would you put it ?
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MaxPC
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Re: Powerless Christianity

Post by MaxPC »

Here is the Scripture that was in my daily reading today; and that reminded me of this thread and the true power of Christ instead of how the world perceives power.
[bible]2 Timothy 2,1-13[/bible]
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Mt 24:35
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Valerie
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Re: Powerless Christianity

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:Thanks Valerie for these exhortations. Could we say then that fasting should be something quite common to our Christian walk throughout the year to develop our resistance (spiritual maturing), through the help of the Spirit, over fleshly desires (i.e. food, entertainment, computer time, etc) that can interfere with our walk with God ?

Following Christ's example, on-going prayer and fasting in a place of solitude is the means of being refueled or filled with the power of the Spirit.

Would you go so far as agreeing with the above statements or how would you put it ?
I would say yes Sudsy, and I believe you put it how I would perceive it as we study Christ, His Apostles, and the Church in this regard. There just had to be a benefit to help others, from emptying ourselves. Not to say there isn't a lot of ways people can benefit and help others without the kind of power your asking about- people all over the world help each other in their own strength out of the goodness of their heart, because we are made in the image of God. However there is a 'distinct' power I believe has somewhat fizzled out of the Church at large which really was used by Christ and His Apostles, and even many throughout this Church age that I have read about their lives- and there was no denying the Holy Spirit power, remembering that these 'gifts' accompanied them as for many reasons- healing, to glorify God- to exhalt Him and to reveal His distinct power in His children that followed/follow Jesus. Is God holding this back intentionally now- it seems so-
That is a different kind of power than Max's post- I think those that know Greek/Hebrew are able to share about the distinctions of the different kinds of powers the Holy Spirit is effective in. I doubt as we near Christ's second Advent we will by that time not see a whole lot until things that happen in Revelation begin- In David Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, I was reading the section on spiritual gifts and the Christians were still raising the dead even into the 3rd century. The gifts went way beyond the Apostles. And healings of all kinds. Mercy manifested.
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