What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

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joshuabgood
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by joshuabgood »

Josh wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:16 pm The question at hand is one where I think a lot of the church got it really wrong in the era from 400 A.D. and on; from that point on, you had entire countries "converting" to Christianity because their king or prince or whoever decided they would go from being pagan to being a "Christian" country.

I find this prospect rather absurd.
Nuance...just because society and/or leaders have influence and culpability doesn't mean that primary responsibility is necessitated. We can acknowledge the truth of some complicity and/culpability without going into the ditch on the other side...and abdicating personal responsibility.

There are sins of commission but also sins of omission.
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joshuabgood
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Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by joshuabgood »

Falco Underhill wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:35 pm
joshuabgood wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:19 pm
Falco Underhill wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:07 pm

That may just refer to it's comparison in "infamy." At any rate the innocents were delivered from Sodom, and I would expect the same for any innocents in that town.
Were the unborn children in the womb not innocent in Sodom?
Do you think those innocents will have to answer for the sins of Sodom on judgment day? I don't.
No I don't. I was simply pushing back on your characterization that the "innocents" escaped Sodom.
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Falco Underhill
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Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Falco Underhill »

joshuabgood wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:43 pm
Falco Underhill wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:35 pm
joshuabgood wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:19 pm

Were the unborn children in the womb not innocent in Sodom?
Do you think those innocents will have to answer for the sins of Sodom on judgment day? I don't.
No I don't. I was simply pushing back on your characterization that the "innocents" escaped Sodom.
They did, at least in a sense, right? They won't be judged for the sins of Sodom in the future, and I don't think they were "judged" for those sins in the past, either.
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temporal1
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by temporal1 »

Jesus proves, it’s all about what happens in eternity.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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GaryK
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Re: New Thread: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by GaryK »

joshuabgood wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:36 pm
At the final judgment day, will we be judged collectively or individually?
Jesus:
Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.
And the preceding verses talk about the people who reject the message the disciples were bringing. People reject the good news of Jesus. At the final judgment the people in those towns who did not reject the message will not be judged by what was done by the rejecters of the message.

Here's what the Apostle John wrote about Jesus.
Revelation 20:11-13 NKJV 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
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HondurasKeiser
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by HondurasKeiser »

Carol Horton, a self-described 'progressive liberal' has an extraordinarily instructive post on her substack about the confusing interpolation that exists between what she calls "progressive liberalism" and "post-liberal progressivism". As a conservative outsider I found the internecine disagreements interesting and instructive but the following paragraphs from the mid-part of her essay seemed to speak to some of the cross-talk that has reigned in this post and, from a personal perspective, why I find Critical Theory so inimical to a healthy polity and a proper understanding of what it means to be human:
That said, one reason it can be hard to distinguish between PL and PLP is that they share certain core political commitments. The precise language used varies. And the underlying theories of self and society that undergird them are different. Nonetheless, both evidence a strong allegiance to some of the same broadly defined political ideals. Most notably, these include:

EQUALITY. At least in terms of their own self-understanding, both PL and PLP are uncompromisingly committed to achieving equality for historically oppressed, marginalized, and/or stigmatized social groups. In both cases, the primary emphasis in this regard is on those that have been defined in terms of race, gender, and sexuality (Blacks, women, gays, etc.).

LIBERATION. Both PL and PLP posit that meaningful equality can’t be achieved without liberating people from the artificial constraints imposed by oppressive social structures and cultural norms. Both see such liberation as simultaneously individual and collective projects, believing that the two are necessarily entwined. In practice, this means that there is always a cultural dimension to politics that extends beyond the realm of law and policy per se.

What’s confusing is that PL and PLP understand the underlying bases of these shared commitments to equality and liberation in ways that are not simply different, but antithetical. Unless these deeper foundations are explicitly acknowledged, however, they’re usually not seen. Consequently, if it’s more politically convenient and/or psychologically comfortable to obscure them, it’s easy to do so — and often done.

Specifically, progressive liberalism is part of a much larger liberal tradition, which (as discussed in a previous post) has also historically contained its conservative counterpart. Both the more left/progressive or right/conservative varieties of liberalism share a common commitment to principles including individual rights, limited government, a market-based economy, the public/private distinction, and the rule of law. In the U.S. context, this translates into an allegiance to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, which together form the cultural and structural bedrock of the American liberal tradition. Consequently, when progressive liberals in the U.S. champion ideals of “equality” and “liberation,” they’re either explicitly or (more often) implicitly assumed to be compatible with this overarching liberal framework.

In contrast, “post-liberal progressivism” is rooted in a much more recently developed body of political thought that, while it has no widely agreed-upon name, can be fairly called “critical social justice” (CSJ). The liberal tradition dates back to the 17th century. CSJ, in contrast, is rooted in the political and cultural upheavals of the 1960s-70s, particularly the “new social movements” for racial, sexual, and gender-based equality and liberation. Beginning in the 1970s, a loose network of complementary yet distinct political/intellectual projects grew out of these movements, including radical feminism, critical race theory, and queer theory.

The concept of “intersectionality,” which was coined by critical race theorist and legal scholar Kimberlé Crenshaw in the late 1980s, provides the overarching framework needed to coalesce these various fields under one broadly defined Critical Social Justice umbrella. Of course, there are many differences among them. They tend to share, however, a common grounding in post-modernism and post-structuralism, as well as an allegiance to cultural radicalism and “strategically essentialist” identities rooted in race, gender, and sexuality. As such, they correspondingly share a rejection of modern “metanarratives,” Enlightenment values, and — most crucially for this discussion — liberalism.

The fact that CSJ is foundationally opposed to liberalism is stated over and over again in the various scholarly literatures that comprise it. Nonetheless, many progressive liberals remain genuinely confused about whether CSJ-infused woke politics represent a needed extension of their own, fundamentally liberal commitments or not. Considering the explicit hostility to liberalism evidenced in CSJ-aligned political theory, this is an odd situation. How can it best be explained?
The core fact needed to make sense of this situation is that while CSJ is fundamentally anti-liberal in theory, it’s also managed to become deeply entrenched in foundational liberal institutions in practice. In order to execute this manoeuver, CSJ’s inherent anti-liberalism has been modified as necessary to succeed within such presumptively liberal enclaves as academia, journalism, business, and law. In the process, the boundaries between post-liberal progressivism and progressive liberalism have often been deliberately blurred.

In their seminal text, Critical Race Theory: An Introduction (NYU Press, 2001), for example, Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic explain that:
Unlike traditional civil rights, which embraces incrementalism and step-by-step progress, critical race theory questions the very foundations of the liberal order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, Enlightenment rationalism, and neutral principles of constitutional law (p.3).
In the 2017 updated edition of the same book, they ask: “What is the situation of critical race theory today?” Instructively, they note that:
Critical race theory is taught at many law schools and has spread to other disciplines and countries. Some judges incorporate its ideas into opinions, often without labeling them as such. Lawyers use critical race theory techniques to advocate on behalf of clients and to expose bias within the system . . . critical race theory remains a dynamic force on the American legal and cultural scene (pp. 77, 91).
The fact that critical race theory is incorporated into judicial opinions “often without labeling” it as such is emblematic of the confusing interpolation of post-liberal progressivism and progressive liberalism. The “rule of law” is, after all, a bedrock principle of liberalism. If judges entrusted to manage it are incorporating anti-liberal theories into their decisions that aren’t flagged as such, it’s very hard for ordinary people who support liberal values but aren’t legal experts to decipher what’s going on.

Anti-liberal feminist theory has had a particularly powerful impact on policy and law. (Of course, not all feminism is anti-liberal. Liberal feminism, however, is definitely not part of the CSJ paradigm.) Radical feminist and legal scholar Catharine MacKinnon, for example, argues forcefully against liberalism in her enormously influential book, Towards a Feminist Theory of the State (Harvard University Press, 1989):
Liberal legalism (is) a medium for making male dominance both invisible and legitimate by adopting the male point of view at the same time as it enforces that view on society . . . In the liberal state, the rule of law — neutral, abstract, elevated, pervasive — both institutionalizes the power of men over women and institionalizes power in its male form (pp. 237-238).
Liberalism, in other words, only pretends to be committed to equal rights for all. In reality, it’s a perniciously powerful way of constructing, legitimating, and enforcing men’s oppression of women.

If MacKinnon has been uncompromising in her denunciation of the liberal legal order, however, she’s also had enormous professional success within it. A chaired professor at Harvard Law School, her extraordinary scope of accomplishment is summarized on her faculty web page:

She conceived sexual abuse as a violation of equality rights, pioneering the legal claim for sexual harassment as sex discrimination in employment and education; with Andrea Dworkin, she recognized the harms of pornography as civil rights violations and proposed the Swedish Model to abolish prostitution. Her approach to equality has been largely accepted in Canada and elsewhere.
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barnhart
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by barnhart »

Probably ten years ago I heard a 60's era hippie feminist excoriate a trans woman for the claim laid on womanhood by pointing out woman is a protected legal status you are born with, one cannot opt in or out. "You are just a man desperate to escape the toxic cultural expectations around manhood!" This the clash observed by Ms. Horton between liberalism and post liberalism.

To me it seems more of a difference in amplitude or application rather than a difference in essence. Both are exit points from the train of radical individualism that has been rolling down the track since the Renaissance. We are all on it some extent, everyone suspicious of those who got off both before and after we did. I imagine economic individual choice to chart your own course in the economy in the 16 th and 17th centuries felt equally threatening to an ordered society as divorce on demand in the 60s. The elimination of a slave based economy was threatening as was the civil rights housing act.

I would hope to avoid being entirely in or out of this phenomenon. Neither buying in nor reacting against, but rather charting a course based on a different star, at times overlapping and at other times deviating from culture. I would guess society will accommodate current threats in a largely unforseen fashion which will be evil some respects but present great opportunity for the church in other areas.
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Ken
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Ken »

barnhart wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:29 pm Probably ten years ago I heard a 60's era hippie feminist excoriate a trans woman for the claim laid on womanhood by pointing out woman is a protected legal status you are born with, one cannot opt in or out. "You are just a man desperate to escape the toxic cultural expectations around manhood!" This the clash observed by Ms. Horton between liberalism and post liberalism.

To me it seems more of a difference in amplitude or application rather than a difference in essence. Both are exit points from the train of radical individualism that has been rolling down the track since the Renaissance. We are all on it some extent, everyone suspicious of those who got off both before and after we did. I imagine economic individual choice to chart your own course in the economy in the 16 th and 17th centuries felt equally threatening to an ordered society as divorce on demand in the 60s. The elimination of a slave based economy was threatening as was the civil rights housing act.

I would hope to avoid being entirely in or out of this phenomenon. Neither buying in nor reacting against, but rather charting a course based on a different star, at times overlapping and at other times deviating from culture. I would guess society will accommodate current threats in a largely unforseen fashion which will be evil some respects but present great opportunity for the church in other areas.
I actually think the next big civil rights issue in this country isn’t going to be about race or gender but about housing. We are reaching a tipping point in many parts of the country when it comes to housing and homelessness. And it isn’t just the coasts. The solutions are going to take just as much of a re-ordering and re-imagining of our society as other big changes like the invention of the automobile or the end of slavery. I don’t think that is hyperbole. The world we are building now through neglect is simply not sustainable. And no other modern wealthy countries seem to have the same crisis as in the US. At least not that I have observed.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Ken wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 1:18 amI actually think the next big civil rights issue in this country isn’t going to be about race or gender but about housing. We are reaching a tipping point in many parts of the country when it comes to housing and homelessness. And it isn’t just the coasts. The solutions are going to take just as much of a re-ordering and re-imagining of our society as other big changes like the invention of the automobile or the end of slavery. I don’t think that is hyperbole. The world we are building now through neglect is simply not sustainable. And no other modern wealthy countries seem to have the same crisis as in the US. At least not that I have observed.
Any thoughts or speculation on what that will look like? Are you thinking land redistribution? More multidwelling units? Etc?
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Re: What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

Post by Josh »

What makes you think the people in charge have any interest in reducing homelessness?
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