Voddie Baucham

[Ernie]

You brought up historical Anabaptism as a way of discrediting Voddie's views of racial issues. I'm simply trying to understand why you don't apply this Anabaptism test to all people on racial issues. It simply is not consistent, IMO, and raises a lot of questions in my mind about how your professed views on Anabaptism and Kingdom values hold up under scrutiny. If you are going to apply these types of tests to only one side and not the other, I think that is a problem.

Can you point me to where Voddie says his reformed views undergird his position on racial reconciliation? If you are going to point to where he said racial reconciliation is already accomplished in Christ, I've already said that I think you are mistaken to attribute that quote to reformed theology, because I reject reformed theology and believe the same thing. Tell me why I'm mistaken in my view that racial reconciliation is already accomplished in Christ's atoning work. In the type of Kingdom you describe in the other thread about what the gospel is, do you see racial animosity in that description? I don't.

Gary, I have tried (evidently unsuccessfully heretofore) to draw the connection for you. But I'll try again =). If one views salvation as primarily involving personal absolution and the "finished work" (which by the way is not a biblical term) of Jesus by grace alone through faith...through the lever of penal substitutionary atonement, for an ultimate futuristic, eschatalogical salvation, then the views of Voddie logically follow. Racial reconciliation already happens by itself when people accept this salvation and personal absolution. There are no societal/cultural or moral next steps/obligations. It is a "free gift" that entails "no works" lest anyone should boast. James is a book of straw. The teachings, life and witness of Jesus are marginalized and literally ignored for the most part. The gospel becomes an ethicless judical deal that doesn't involve real, literal salvation on earth as also in heaven. This theology permits slavery, permits burning witches, permits warring against American Indians, etc etc . I don't find this view of salvation compelling as it doesn't fit with the message and person of Jesus Christ. (Since you have already stated your issue with Calvinism we can leave that for another thread.

I have already outlined in the other thread what I think is a more Christocentric (and in harmony with Jesus teachings) view of salvation and the good news. The real ethics and outworking of that perspective leads to entirely different outcome on race relations, church reconciliation, practical living like Jesus, etc. (Yes I know Anabaptists are repeatedly accused of being a works religion as a result - but that charge I don't think is defensible - but I won't take time to take that down here aside from mentioning the life boat analogy).

However, a simple thought experiment I think shows that in fact the real work of restitution and reconciliation is needed even for those "in Christ." For instance in our Anabaptist tradition, as you and I know, there have been many acrimonious splits between Christians. The work of Christ followers, in this instance, isn't to mystically claim that we are already reconciled "in Christ" and so no work needs to be done to reconcile painful church splits (or any other business or missions split or in marraiges). No...the real work of Kingdom building exists in bringing these parties back together, engaging in the real work of restitution and reconciliation. In our culture and society there is work that needs to be done to bring about racial reconciliation. And that work is part of building the Kingdom of God on earth as in heaven.

It isn't about willy nilly discrediting Voddie because of some unrelated theology. But I have explained that before I think. But even that aside, I am happy to affirm Voddie on the points of his teachings that seem to me to be aligned to the good news of Jesus Christ (his life and witness). For instance, his advocacy for man/woman marriage for life. There is no "gotcha" here, Gary. I don't mind affirming people who espouse things that to me feel like truthful points worth considering. It doesn't matter if it is Voddie or anybody else.

Well, JoshB, this post was referenced and footnoted in the March/April 2023, Anabaptist Council for Truth publication

[Bootstrap]

However, a simple thought experiment I think shows that in fact the real work of restitution and reconciliation is needed even for those "in Christ." For instance in our Anabaptist tradition, as you and I know, there have been many acrimonious splits between Christians. The work of Christ followers, in this instance, isn't to mystically claim that we are already reconciled "in Christ" and so no work needs to be done to reconcile painful church splits (or any other business or missions split or in marraiges). No...the real work of Kingdom building exists in bringing these parties back together, engaging in the real work of restitution and reconciliation. In our culture and society there is work that needs to be done to bring about racial reconciliation. And that work is part of building the Kingdom of God on earth as in heaven.

I missed that earlier. This is an extremely clear and helpful explanation of why restitution and reconciliation are still needed after salvation. Thanks for this.

[ohio jones]

Well, JoshB, this post was referenced and footnoted in the March/April 2023, Anabaptist Council for Truth publication

You must have missed my post at the end of p. 5

[Ernie]

Well, JoshB, this post was referenced and footnoted in the March/April 2023, Anabaptist Council for Truth publication

You must have missed my post at the end of p. 5

I did. My bad.

[joshuabgood]

You brought up historical Anabaptism as a way of discrediting Voddie's views of racial issues. I'm simply trying to understand why you don't apply this Anabaptism test to all people on racial issues. It simply is not consistent, IMO, and raises a lot of questions in my mind about how your professed views on Anabaptism and Kingdom values hold up under scrutiny. If you are going to apply these types of tests to only one side and not the other, I think that is a problem.

Can you point me to where Voddie says his reformed views undergird his position on racial reconciliation? If you are going to point to where he said racial reconciliation is already accomplished in Christ, I've already said that I think you are mistaken to attribute that quote to reformed theology, because I reject reformed theology and believe the same thing. Tell me why I'm mistaken in my view that racial reconciliation is already accomplished in Christ's atoning work. In the type of Kingdom you describe in the other thread about what the gospel is, do you see racial animosity in that description? I don't.

Gary, I have tried (evidently unsuccessfully heretofore) to draw the connection for you. But I'll try again =). If one views salvation as primarily involving personal absolution and the "finished work" (which by the way is not a biblical term) of Jesus by grace alone through faith...through the lever of penal substitutionary atonement, for an ultimate futuristic, eschatalogical salvation, then the views of Voddie logically follow. Racial reconciliation already happens by itself when people accept this salvation and personal absolution. There are no societal/cultural or moral next steps/obligations. It is a "free gift" that entails "no works" lest anyone should boast. James is a book of straw. The teachings, life and witness of Jesus are marginalized and literally ignored for the most part. The gospel becomes an ethicless judical deal that doesn't involve real, literal salvation on earth as also in heaven. This theology permits slavery, permits burning witches, permits warring against American Indians, etc etc . I don't find this view of salvation compelling as it doesn't fit with the message and person of Jesus Christ. (Since you have already stated your issue with Calvinism we can leave that for another thread.

I have already outlined in the other thread what I think is a more Christocentric (and in harmony with Jesus teachings) view of salvation and the good news. The real ethics and outworking of that perspective leads to entirely different outcome on race relations, church reconciliation, practical living like Jesus, etc. (Yes I know Anabaptists are repeatedly accused of being a works religion as a result - but that charge I don't think is defensible - but I won't take time to take that down here aside from mentioning the life boat analogy).

However, a simple thought experiment I think shows that in fact the real work of restitution and reconciliation is needed even for those "in Christ." For instance in our Anabaptist tradition, as you and I know, there have been many acrimonious splits between Christians. The work of Christ followers, in this instance, isn't to mystically claim that we are already reconciled "in Christ" and so no work needs to be done to reconcile painful church splits (or any other business or missions split or in marraiges). No...the real work of Kingdom building exists in bringing these parties back together, engaging in the real work of restitution and reconciliation. In our culture and society there is work that needs to be done to bring about racial reconciliation. And that work is part of building the Kingdom of God on earth as in heaven.

It isn't about willy nilly discrediting Voddie because of some unrelated theology. But I have explained that before I think. But even that aside, I am happy to affirm Voddie on the points of his teachings that seem to me to be aligned to the good news of Jesus Christ (his life and witness). For instance, his advocacy for man/woman marriage for life. There is no "gotcha" here, Gary. I don't mind affirming people who espouse things that to me feel like truthful points worth considering. It doesn't matter if it is Voddie or anybody else.

Well, JoshB, this post was referenced and footnoted in the March/April 2023, Anabaptist Council for Truth publication

I didn't manage to see the actual article, but I take it, it wasn't cited in such a way as something to be affirmed?

In looking at the board for ACT, I know quite a few of them personally. Leon Yoder has an especially warm spot in my heart as my former HS teacher. Also the influence of BMA theologians are evident in the board constituency, and subsequently the theologians whom they learn from and are influenced by.

[temporal1]

You can use the Bible to justify most things, and you can worship the Bible instead of entering into relationship with He who gave us the Word (which isn't the Bible, by the way.)

But to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God is a bit more difficult.

Another dose of Voddie:

Defending the Faith in a Hostile World Voddie Baucham / 43min