Newcomers "Can" or "Want"

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Wade
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Newcomers "Can" or "Want"

Post by Wade »

From the Charity thread there was a lot of information that I never knew about, since having no relations with Charity.
Dan Z wrote:Charity tended to draw in "seeker people" (from both old-order/conservative Anabaptism and as well as radical homeschool types from outside of Anabaptism) who were generally strongly independent-minded idealists, discontent with their current faith context. This worked great at first, as people with much zeal for their faith and ideals gathered around a strong leader (Denny) in an idealistic movement. It was truly electric in its day! But, in the long run, this makeup of people contributed to the difficulty Charity had in keeping everyone going the same direction, for a number of reasons:
  • 1) Seekers are mobile by nature, not prone to appreciating the status quo, nor staying content in the same place for very long.
    2) The folks Charity drew were mainly independent idealists, each with strong convictions about their own ideas, and not prone to compromise or conformity.
    3) Charity also drew in and taught an authoritarian approach to faith and family - with all of those little "Kings" having difficulty cooperating under a higher authority.
    4) Authoritarianism tends to keep peace and harmony in the short-run (and can even produce something that looks very much like a Godly family), but research shows that in the long run, when children of authoritarians grow up and assert their own independence, a higher percentage of them will leave their father's faith.
Sorry to get all sociological here...but having lived in the Charity context for a while, I've had a lot of time to think about what worked and what didn't.

I know there are a lot of remnants of the Remnant Churches remaining, and I honestly hope some of the good seeds from the movement are growing to maturity...and that there is still a yield of good fruit yet to be realized.
I really appreciate this post from Dan in seeing some things and would like to share not as a defense for Charity or myself or arguing in any way that there aren't people like he says but rather sharing in helping why some people make the decisions they do, and so hopefully opening the door for some to be considered in a different light.

For me I was raised without Christianity. With no Anabaptist Churches near(like most of the world) it only make sense to move. The problem was by the time I realized the need for change in my life; we were hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt including nearly $50,000 in credit card debt at 20% interest. :shock: :oops:
Now keep in mind that the last time I heard the average Canadian spends 3% more than they earn... So depending on own long they have lived in covetousness their debt load could be huge and this is the norm.
So when we "wanted" to move it wasn't never the option of where do we "want" to move but rather of where "can" we move. This does not make newcomers mobile - in a simple way at least.

Our "can" came when I got a job offer near a church(work also paid for our entire move plus extra and rent for three months). Keep in mind I still had no idea that there were different denominations so much within Anabaptism. Before our move we had Rod and Staff material because we were homeschooling with no option of a Christian school except a Catholic school 30 minutes away which we "couldn't" afford to drive to anyway.

But now we were finally at an Anabaptist church! :P
A very strong message was preached on not accepting Child Tax Benefits from the government. I talked to the Pastor after and he explained that the government documents were written in a way that said they owned our children by receiving that money from them and was very much against God's order.
That was easy for me as I was excited to submit and conform and stopping government aid was something I "could" do.
But without that money we soon found with all our debt (that was my own fault), we "couldn't" afford to even drive our vehicle... So we "couldn't" go to church... Yet we "wanted" to...

Months passed of us listened to sermons over the phone because that was something we "could" do. Not something we "wanted" to do. Really when asked how we could be helped I didn't know what to say? We just met these Mennonites and was I to ask them for a few hundred thousand dollars, or just gas, food, etc... They did help in ways. But I just said a bike would be nice to get to work rather than walking everyday. That lasted for about a year when the church member finally said he was missing getting to ride with his son...
We heard things, the times we "could" sporadically make it to church about consistent witness and consistent church attendance. We "wanted" to...

Things did get better that we "could" attended consistently but we still had a lot of debt.
When homeschooling versus church schooling came up; maybe you guessed it - it was something I "wanted" to do but "couldn't" afford to do. (The schooling was free - but gas and a second vehicle are not.)

I don't want to give any impression that I am a strong advocate of homeschooling. I do think church schools bear much good fruit. But I am concerned we label newcomers by their actions of what they "could" do rather than what they "want" to do. Yes, much things take faith in not seeing a way how it will ever work, but somethings are also completely unreasonable to follow unless the church is very much willing to support. But those who are sincere are not looking for support but rather to be a blessing to others while being accepted into the local body even if they "can't" uphold standards that require the financial means to do so.

I wonder how many people are turned away that are poor and take a look at the standards of a church and just laugh and say how "can" I follow Christ well spending a couple thousand dollars on moving, and/or a couple of thousands of dollars on a new wardrobe and/or a couple thousand dollars on second vehicle and default on my loans in the process? Even if they "want" to?

Are these people then showing up at Charity?
Please remember if certain financial things are not a requirement in your church and we would have made out fine - when I view the locations of plain churches; the less conservative groups tend to cluster in closer proximity while the ultra-conservatives that require more of these financial standards are more spread out and more available for newcomers to interact with...

"Can" we encourage newcomers or do we "want" to?
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MaxPC
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Re: Newcomers "Can" or "Want"

Post by MaxPC »

Some great insights there, Wade.

Can or want? I'd add another question: Which ones? Hospitality and openness are important but we also don't want to be foolish (Matthew 10:16)

There's been a number of inquiries to Plain Catholics from people looking to escape their debt loads too (I'm glad you made it clear you're not doing that and are taking responsibility for yourself).

It's hard. We want to help but don't have those resources. I've heard from some groups that they get membership requests from people who want to freeload off of the community. Their motives become clear when they've been with the church or group for just a few months.

As RZehr said: Time reveals. :D
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Haystack
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Re: Newcomers "Can" or "Want"

Post by Haystack »

Wade wrote:"Can" we encourage newcomers or do we "want" to?
I know this is a case by case basis, but there's defiantly hesitance towards newcomers. I can understand wanting to be cautious in order to block out the evils that newcomers can expose, but where is the line drawn? Take Steve for example, his kids are members of their Church, but they won't allow him to become a member because of his background. If a person doesn't have a family history that is relevant, I feel they will never truly be "one of them". I'm sure it's not always intentional, but to a newcomer it's not very welcoming. I know being apart of a Church isn't about fitting in, but life is too short to attend a Church with people who don't really want you there. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, but for a newcomer it's hard to stay strong sometimes in a environment such as that. I'm not suggesting they roll out the red carpet for anyone who wants to join, but for people who truly prove themselves to being a follower shouldn't get a cold shoulder either.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Newcomers "Can" or "Want"

Post by Bootstrap »

People who really zealously want to follow God often want to join a fellowship that looks really different from the world and is barricaded from the world. But that can mean the group is barricaded from them too. You want to be on the other side of a really solid door, then you realize that the door is really solid.

I keep thinking of the phrase "And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved". In my background, we want it to be fairly easy to join the church, and reaching out to sinners, tax collectors, prostitutes, and other imperfect people is really important. That has the obvious disadvantage that you wind up with a church with people who don't share your background.

Ideally, you want to be in this world but not of it, open to newcomers, and reaching out to sinners, tax collectors, prostitutes, and other imperfect people. That's a hard balance to reach. How can a church that strongly believes in providing for each other make it easy for people with large debt or medical problems to join?
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Josh
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Re: Newcomers "Can" or "Want"

Post by Josh »

A very strong message was preached on not accepting Child Tax Benefits from the government. I talked to the Pastor after and he explained that the government documents were written in a way that said they owned our children by receiving that money from them and was very much against God's order.
That was easy for me as I was excited to submit and conform and stopping government aid was something I "could" do.
But without that money we soon found with all our debt (that was my own fault), we "couldn't" afford to even drive our vehicle... So we "couldn't" go to church... Yet we "wanted" to...
This reminds me of these words from our master:
But Jesus replied, "Woe to you experts in religious law as well! You load people down with burdens difficult to bear, yet you yourselves refuse to touch the burdens with even one of your fingers!["]
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Josh
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Re: Newcomers "Can" or "Want"

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote:Ideally, you want to be in this world but not of it, open to newcomers, and reaching out to sinners, tax collectors, prostitutes, and other imperfect people. That's a hard balance to reach. How can a church that strongly believes in providing for each other make it easy for people with large debt or medical problems to join?
I've only been in moderately conservative Mennonite congregations, or a CGC Mennonite congregation. But in my experience, the answer to this was to help me in any way, within reason.

So, for example, I was admitted to the health need sharing programme before I was a baptised member. When I was very, very broke, different folks from the church I was attending helped me out with different things including housing and a vehicle.

Ultimately, if we're going to tell someone that in order to be Christ's disciple he needs to stop doing something like taking a certain tax benefit, then we'd better be willing to help him feed his family if his job doesn't provide enough when he no longer takes the benefit. If we think we are pious Christians, and we lay a heavy burden on someone, then we'd best be willing to take on some of that burden ourselves.

If you are considering becoming part of a congregation, I think it's important to see them trying to meet the needs of "the least of these". If they aren't doing that, is it really the right place to be?
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Josh
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Re: Newcomers "Can" or "Want"

Post by Josh »

MaxPC wrote:Some great insights there, Wade.

Can or want? I'd add another question: Which ones? Hospitality and openness are important but we also don't want to be foolish (Matthew 10:16)

There's been a number of inquiries to Plain Catholics from people looking to escape their debt loads too (I'm glad you made it clear you're not doing that and are taking responsibility for yourself).

It's hard. We want to help but don't have those resources. I've heard from some groups that they get membership requests from people who want to freeload off of the community. Their motives become clear when they've been with the church or group for just a few months.

As RZehr said: Time reveals. :D
Could you provide us some insight on what a "membership request" means and exactly how they would freeload off the community?

When I joined a plain Mennonite community, I did not "escape my debt load" as the requirements on me were a bit stricter - for example, instead of just spending money on myself, now I had to think about helping meet the needs of others and contribute money to the church offering too.
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Josh
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Re: Newcomers "Can" or "Want"

Post by Josh »

Wade wrote:Are these people then showing up at Charity?
Yes, in my experience, they did, back when Charity was a larger movement.
Please remember if certain financial things are not a requirement in your church and we would have made out fine - when I view the locations of plain churches; the less conservative groups tend to cluster in closer proximity while the ultra-conservatives that require more of these financial standards are more spread out and more available for newcomers to interact with...
I agree with that observation. If one doesn't want to be at a Nationwide, Eastern, or CGC church, one is going to have to choose to be near a plain community. That means moving.
"Can" we encourage newcomers or do we "want" to?
Some groups simply are not interested in taking on "hard cases". I don't think I could be a member of a church that actively avoided being around "the least of these".
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Wade
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Re: Newcomers "Can" or "Want"

Post by Wade »

Haystack wrote:
Wade wrote:"Can" we encourage newcomers or do we "want" to?
I know this is a case by case basis, but there's defiantly hesitance towards newcomers. I can understand wanting to be cautious in order to block out the evils that newcomers can expose, but where is the line drawn? Take Steve for example, his kids are members of their Church, but they won't allow him to become a member because of his background. If a person doesn't have a family history that is relevant, I feel they will never truly be "one of them". I'm sure it's not always intentional, but to a newcomer it's not very welcoming. I know being apart of a Church isn't about fitting in, but life is too short to attend a Church with people who don't really want you there. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, but for a newcomer it's hard to stay strong sometimes in a environment such as that. I'm not suggesting they roll out the red carpet for anyone who wants to join, but for people who truly prove themselves to being a follower shouldn't get a cold shoulder either.
Good points.

Like you I don't have any desire to ruffle feathers or expect a red carpet or complain or point out fault.

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My intent is such to bring an awareness that seems to be overlooked. I never hear word about people that "can't" move to a church - I only ever hear about authoritarian or individualistic people... :roll:

If I had a dollar for every time I heard on a CD, sermon, person, etc. say to find a church and submit to it I would likely have a load of money that I could just pick wherever I "wanted."

And I have a very saddening fear that this is happening to more and more newcomers. It's like bringing someone a jug of gas when their car is broken down and they need a new carburetor, and then telling them to drive just because you brought them some gas... :?

What about the widows with a low fixed income?
What about the husband or wife with the unbelieving spouse or one that doesn't want to move? It's not individualistic not to move, it's that one is not an authoritarian. :!:
What about the young man/woman buried in student loans?
What about the divorced person that is struggling to stay a float and shouldn't leave children behind or any other responsibilities behind?
And so the list goes on of scattered sheep that don't have the means but have the advice...(James 2)

Our hearts ache as we consider our experience of leaving family and the world behind without support, moving to a church, and loving those people so very much. We miss and think about that church family everyday... :cry:
Now the pain is too deep for some in my family and they have no desire to move near a church again if once again to face that rejection no matter how much others "want" to...

But our experience is to share an illustration rather for your prayers or pity.

I don't want to discourage any newcomers from going to a church in anyway. But if I could bring awareness to things that will help even one person to integrate into a church then what a great joy!

There are scattered sheep all over that need our help...
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Wade
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Re: Newcomers "Can" or "Want"

Post by Wade »

Oops... :oops: I realized just now there was a statement maybe could give the wrong impression:
But our experience is to share an illustration rather for your prayers or pity.
It should rather say: But our experience is to share an illustration and is not in an effort to gain any prayers or pity...
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