From Cult to Established Church

General Christian Theology
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23823
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by Josh »

RZehr wrote:For myself, the role of leadership is critical. If I'm observing a new group, I'd want to see how the transition of leadership is handled. What happens when he is challenged on an issue? How is that handled?

I think time is a great revealer. What does the 3rd generation fruit look like?
Paul and Peter themselves ended up leaving us a church that had folks like Constantine running it.
0 x
Valerie
Posts: 5309
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:59 am
Location: Medina OH
Affiliation: non-denominational

Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by Valerie »

MaxPC wrote:
RZehr wrote:For myself, the role of leadership is critical. If I'm observing a new group, I'd want to see how the transition of leadership is handled. What happens when he is challenged on an issue? How is that handled?

I think time is a great revealer. What does the 3rd generation fruit look like?
Absolutely. :up:

Leadership is important too. I wonder sometimes though what God was thinking when Jesus made Peter the Rock, especially after Peter denied him? Instead of a "super leader", he appointed a very flawed man to be the leader of the first Christians. But then, God's ways aren't always our ways. Those flaws kept Peter humble: a message for all leaders. :lol:
That would be a wonderful topic in itself- the 12 Jesus chose-
0 x
Neto
Posts: 4579
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
Affiliation: Gospel Haven

Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by Neto »

I don’t think that ‘cult’ is a negative term in the Latin languages. In Portuguese (Brazilian Portuguese, at least) the word ‘culto’ is used to refer to a religious service.

I think that I do see validity in Max's definition, in the sense that any group that is sufficiently out of the mainstream of majority "Christian" thought will be labeled as a cult, in the negative sense. So with that understanding, I would answer that a 'cult' (a distinctive Christian group) will become main stream when they loose the most variant parts of their belief or practice. But I'm answering this from the perspective of those who see that group in negative light, either as being "off", or extremists. Once when I was in Bible College I was getting perhaps a bit long-winded in describing who the Mennonites were, and the guy I was talking with came back with something like "Now what kind of cult is this you are talking about?" So the farther the mainstream of "Christianity" gets from true Biblical faith & conduct, the more we will look like a cult to them, and the more we should, if I might add. In that light, a cult will become an established church when they have lost their zeal, their connection to the Holy Spirit of God.
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
RZehr
Posts: 7027
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:42 am
Affiliation: Cons. Mennonite

Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by RZehr »

Josh wrote:
RZehr wrote:For myself, the role of leadership is critical. If I'm observing a new group, I'd want to see how the transition of leadership is handled. What happens when he is challenged on an issue? How is that handled?

I think time is a great revealer. What does the 3rd generation fruit look like?
Paul and Peter themselves ended up leaving us a church that had folks like Constantine running it.
I wouldn't hardly blame Paul and Peter for what happened that many years after them.
I may still have influence, and maybe even direct influence, over my grandchildren. But beyond that my personal influence is extremely diminished and replaced by others. I think my mission and goal is to teach others to teach others.
0 x
Sudsy
Posts: 5856
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by Sudsy »

MaxPC wrote:
RZehr wrote:For myself, the role of leadership is critical. If I'm observing a new group, I'd want to see how the transition of leadership is handled. What happens when he is challenged on an issue? How is that handled?

I think time is a great revealer. What does the 3rd generation fruit look like?
Absolutely. :up:

Leadership is important too. I wonder sometimes though what God was thinking when Jesus made Peter the Rock, especially after Peter denied him? Instead of a "super leader", he appointed a very flawed man to be the leader of the first Christians. But then, God's ways aren't always our ways. Those flaws kept Peter humble: a message for all leaders. :lol:
I guess a cult was formed when the first interpretation of what Peter said was what Christ would build His Church on and not Peter himself. Because we have differing interpretations of scriptures, any interpretation of scripture from an original interpretation (if one can be proven to exist) would result in a cult belief.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14442
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by Bootstrap »

Neto wrote:I don’t think that ‘cult’ is a negative term in the Latin languages. In Portuguese (Brazilian Portuguese, at least) the word ‘culto’ is used to refer to a religious service.
But if we want to look at the Latin definition, we should probably look at the way the term was used in Rome before the Holy Roman Empire, the way it was used during the Holy Roman Empire, and the way it has been used in Latin by the Vatican since then.

For most of this history, these people would have seen Mennonites as a cult. Since Pope John II, that's thawing out, and we're at least "separated brethren" now, and maybe even better. And through most of Anabaptist history, we have returned the favor with our opinions of "papists". I'm very glad to be living at a time that we do not condemn each other or throw words like anathema at each other. I believe there are clearly Catholics who are also led by the Holy Spirit and whose lives exhibit true discipleship to Christ.

One of the best ways to get people riled up is to use terms that are vaguely defined but full of emotion. I think 'cult' has so many different definitions that it makes it hard to discuss clearly - often, each person is using the term to mean something different. I think it's more helpful to ask what a church should be doing. I'm also not sure it's helpful to try to figure out the magic dividing line at which a church can no longer be considered a Christian church. It's more useful to look for a church that is clearly living out the Gospel defined by what Jesus said and did.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by MaxPC »

Neto wrote:I don’t think that ‘cult’ is a negative term in the Latin languages. In Portuguese (Brazilian Portuguese, at least) the word ‘culto’ is used to refer to a religious service.

I think that I do see validity in Max's definition, in the sense that any group that is sufficiently out of the mainstream of majority "Christian" thought will be labeled as a cult, in the negative sense. So with that understanding, I would answer that a 'cult' (a distinctive Christian group) will become main stream when they loose the most variant parts of their belief or practice. But I'm answering this from the perspective of those who see that group in negative light, either as being "off", or extremists. Once when I was in Bible College I was getting perhaps a bit long-winded in describing who the Mennonites were, and the guy I was talking with came back with something like "Now what kind of cult is this you are talking about?" So the farther the mainstream of "Christianity" gets from true Biblical faith & conduct, the more we will look like a cult to them, and the more we should, if I might add. In that light, a cult will become an established church when they have lost their zeal, their connection to the Holy Spirit of God.
So very true. As some established churches have abandoned the Bible to embrace homosexuality, nonBiblical marriage, abortion and other aspects of secular culture to go with the flow of society, the more members they lose. The irony was the fact that they had hoped to boost their attendance by "being more welcoming." The latest to fall victim to this kind of thinking is the United Methodist Church. The homosexual unions battle waged onward. Sad.
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23823
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by Josh »

MaxPC wrote:
Neto wrote:I don’t think that ‘cult’ is a negative term in the Latin languages. In Portuguese (Brazilian Portuguese, at least) the word ‘culto’ is used to refer to a religious service.

I think that I do see validity in Max's definition, in the sense that any group that is sufficiently out of the mainstream of majority "Christian" thought will be labeled as a cult, in the negative sense. So with that understanding, I would answer that a 'cult' (a distinctive Christian group) will become main stream when they loose the most variant parts of their belief or practice. But I'm answering this from the perspective of those who see that group in negative light, either as being "off", or extremists. Once when I was in Bible College I was getting perhaps a bit long-winded in describing who the Mennonites were, and the guy I was talking with came back with something like "Now what kind of cult is this you are talking about?" So the farther the mainstream of "Christianity" gets from true Biblical faith & conduct, the more we will look like a cult to them, and the more we should, if I might add. In that light, a cult will become an established church when they have lost their zeal, their connection to the Holy Spirit of God.
So very true. As some established churches have abandoned the Bible to embrace homosexuality, nonBiblical marriage, abortion and other aspects of secular culture to go with the flow of society, the more members they lose. The irony was the fact that they had hoped to boost their attendance by "being more welcoming." The latest to fall victim to this kind of thinking is the United Methodist Church. The homosexual unions battle waged onward. Sad.
Numbers aren't an accurate way to assess this. Globally, United Methodism is growing, Roman Catholicism is shrinking.

Mormonism is growing really fast. So are heretical cults like Church of God Restoration, Worldwide Church of God, etc.

Apostolic Pentecostals are growing fast both domestically and internationally. Does that mean they have it right? I don't know.

My own church is growing faster than it ever has and is bigger than it ever has been, with a broader global and domestic reach than it ever had before. I don't think that means we are necessarily right just because we are growing.
0 x
Judas Maccabeus
Posts: 3878
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:13 am
Location: Maryland
Affiliation: Con. Menno.

Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Josh wrote:
MaxPC wrote:
Neto wrote:I don’t think that ‘cult’ is a negative term in the Latin languages. In Portuguese (Brazilian Portuguese, at least) the word ‘culto’ is used to refer to a religious service.

I think that I do see validity in Max's definition, in the sense that any group that is sufficiently out of the mainstream of majority "Christian" thought will be labeled as a cult, in the negative sense. So with that understanding, I would answer that a 'cult' (a distinctive Christian group) will become main stream when they loose the most variant parts of their belief or practice. But I'm answering this from the perspective of those who see that group in negative light, either as being "off", or extremists. Once when I was in Bible College I was getting perhaps a bit long-winded in describing who the Mennonites were, and the guy I was talking with came back with something like "Now what kind of cult is this you are talking about?" So the farther the mainstream of "Christianity" gets from true Biblical faith & conduct, the more we will look like a cult to them, and the more we should, if I might add. In that light, a cult will become an established church when they have lost their zeal, their connection to the Holy Spirit of God.
So very true. As some established churches have abandoned the Bible to embrace homosexuality, nonBiblical marriage, abortion and other aspects of secular culture to go with the flow of society, the more members they lose. The irony was the fact that they had hoped to boost their attendance by "being more welcoming." The latest to fall victim to this kind of thinking is the United Methodist Church. The homosexual unions battle waged onward. Sad.
Numbers aren't an accurate way to assess this. Globally, United Methodism is growing, Roman Catholicism is shrinking.

Mormonism is growing really fast. So are heretical cults like Church of God Restoration, Worldwide Church of God, etc.

Apostolic Pentecostals are growing fast both domestically and internationally. Does that mean they have it right? I don't know.

My own church is growing faster than it ever has and is bigger than it ever has been, with a broader global and domestic reach than it ever had before. I don't think that means we are necessarily right just because we are growing.
So what do you think they are doing right?

J.M.
0 x
:hug:
User avatar
ohio jones
Posts: 5221
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:23 pm
Location: undisclosed
Affiliation: Rosedale Network

Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by ohio jones »

Josh wrote:Worldwide Church of God
This is probably the best example of a group that made the leap from cult (using the common definition, not necessarily the one in the OP) to church. Now known as Grace Communion International, it has rejected most of the heretical beliefs of Armstrongism and aligned itself with the National Association of Evangelicals (whether or not it has fully made that transition I don't know, but most accounts say it is well along the path to orthodoxy). A dozen or so splinter groups claiming to be the true remnant of the WCG remain heretical to a greater or lesser degree, but the main body is quite different from what it was 30 years ago.
0 x
I grew up around Indiana, You grew up around Galilee; And if I ever really do grow up, I wanna grow up to be just like You -- Rich Mullins

I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
Post Reply