From Cult to Established Church

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gcdonner
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Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by gcdonner »

Bootstrap wrote:
MaxPC wrote:To all: Note that I'm also differentiating a cult from an "established church or fellowship." As in
"When does a 'cult' become an established church or fellowship."
So in this definition, the difference is whether it is established or not? If so, what do you mean by established and how can you tell if it is established or not? If you can answer that question, then it should answer the question in your OP - it becomes a church when it becomes established.
He is asking us to answer the question, so why are you questioning his question and not answering the question. Do you understand the question?

Too many folks looking for an argument and not willing to discuss, I'm afraid.
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Soloist
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Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by Soloist »

I would suggest that the term cult is completely subjective. For example, my parents would consider the conservative Mennonites to be a cult. They likely wouldn't admit that but thats purely because of us and the fact they do believe in the deity of Christ. They would still consider Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses to be a cult. I would assume Charity would fall in there too for the same reasons as the Mennonites.
On the Catholic side, lots of people I used to know would consider the Catholic church to be a cult or the anti-christ. Take it for what you will, but cult is subjective.

With that in mind, to some people, it never does transition from a cult to a fellowship.
I would never label anything as a cult purely for size or time but off of belief/practice.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by KingdomBuilder »

I'm not looking for an argument by any stretch. He asked our thoughts (which is the last line, so yes, I read) and my thought is that a cult isn't merely something that's different.
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Bootstrap
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Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by Bootstrap »

gcdonner wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
MaxPC wrote:To all: Note that I'm also differentiating a cult from an "established church or fellowship." As in
"When does a 'cult' become an established church or fellowship."
So in this definition, the difference is whether it is established or not? If so, what do you mean by established and how can you tell if it is established or not? If you can answer that question, then it should answer the question in your OP - it becomes a church when it becomes established.
He is asking us to answer the question, so why are you questioning his question and not answering the question. Do you understand the question?

Too many folks looking for an argument and not willing to discuss, I'm afraid.
I don't think I'm looking for an argument. He is asking a question that depends crucially on his definitions, which were not initially clear. According to his definitions, the difference between a church and a cult is that a church is established. If he now provides a clear definition of established, I think the answer to his question will become obvious. That's why clear definitions are helpful.

Especially when the definition is different from everyday usage, getting clarity on the definition is important if we want to discuss it clearly.
Soloist wrote:I would suggest that the term cult is completely subjective. For example, my parents would consider the conservative Mennonites to be a cult. They likely wouldn't admit that but thats purely because of us and the fact they do believe in the deity of Christ. They would still consider Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses to be a cult. I would assume Charity would fall in there too for the same reasons as the Mennonites.
On the Catholic side, lots of people I used to know would consider the Catholic church to be a cult or the anti-christ. Take it for what you will, but cult is subjective.
If we tried to clearly define what 'cult' means in each part of the above paragraph, we would come up with several different definitions, all different from the one Max gives. These definitions would lead to different conclusions. But to answer Max's question, we probably have to work with his definitions.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MaxPC
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Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by MaxPC »

Soloist wrote:I would suggest that the term cult is completely subjective. For example, my parents would consider the conservative Mennonites to be a cult. They likely wouldn't admit that but thats purely because of us and the fact they do believe in the deity of Christ. They would still consider Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses to be a cult. I would assume Charity would fall in there too for the same reasons as the Mennonites.
On the Catholic side, lots of people I used to know would consider the Catholic church to be a cult or the anti-christ. Take it for what you will, but cult is subjective.

With that in mind, to some people, it never does transition from a cult to a fellowship.
I would never label anything as a cult purely for size or time but off of belief/practice.
I agree, Soloist: 'cult' is very subjective. That's why I'm interested in everyone's thoughts.

Thank you, GC :up:
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Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by Soloist »

Bootstrap wrote:
I would suggest that the term cult is completely subjective. For example, my parents would consider the conservative Mennonites to be a cult. They likely wouldn't admit that but thats purely because of us and the fact they do believe in the deity of Christ. They would still consider Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses to be a cult. I would assume Charity would fall in there too for the same reasons as the Mennonites.
On the Catholic side, lots of people I used to know would consider the Catholic church to be a cult or the anti-christ. Take it for what you will, but cult is subjective.
If we tried to clearly define what 'cult' means in each part of the above paragraph, we would come up with several different definitions, all different from the one Max gives. These definitions would lead to different conclusions. But to answer Max's question, we probably have to work with his definitions.
Maybe you are commenting in general, but for clarification I did answer his question.
With that in mind, to some people, it never does transition from a cult to a fellowship.
I would never label anything as a cult purely for size or time but off of belief/practice.
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Bootstrap
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Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:I agree, Soloist: 'cult' is very subjective. That's why I'm interested in everyone's thoughts.
Are you asking us to share our own thoughts with our own definitions, whether or not they agree with the one given in the OP? Or are you asking us to discuss your question using your definitions? Or are you leaving that up to each individual?
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Bootstrap
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Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by Bootstrap »

Soloist wrote:Maybe you are commenting in general, but for clarification I did answer his question.
With that in mind, to some people, it never does transition from a cult to a fellowship.
I would never label anything as a cult purely for size or time but off of belief/practice.
Yes, you did answer his question - with a different definition, I think. Here is his:
MaxPC wrote:By cult I'm using the definition "a small group of people who share religious practices that are different from other fellowships, churches, or denominations." I'm not referring to the negative definition of the word.
MaxPC wrote:To all: Note that I'm also differentiating a cult from an "established church or fellowship." As in
"When does a 'cult' become an established church or fellowship."
So you are saying that in your definition, unlike Max's, an established church or fellowship can still be a cult. And I'm guessing that in your definition, a fellowship that is not established would not be a cult if it has biblical teaching. I'm not sure what Max means by established, but I suspect that many Mennonite groups are not established by some conventional definitions.

Max - using your definitions, would you see the Jehovah's Witnesses as an established church or fellowship? Would you consider it a cult? Would you consider a small house church with biblical teachings a cult? Would you consider it an established church?
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Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by RZehr »

For myself, the role of leadership is critical. If I'm observing a new group, I'd want to see how the transition of leadership is handled. What happens when he is challenged on an issue? How is that handled?

I think time is a great revealer. What does the 3rd generation fruit look like?
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Re: From Cult to Established Church

Post by MaxPC »

RZehr wrote:For myself, the role of leadership is critical. If I'm observing a new group, I'd want to see how the transition of leadership is handled. What happens when he is challenged on an issue? How is that handled?

I think time is a great revealer. What does the 3rd generation fruit look like?
Absolutely. :up:

Leadership is important too. I wonder sometimes though what God was thinking when Jesus made Peter the Rock, especially after Peter denied him? Instead of a "super leader", he appointed a very flawed man to be the leader of the first Christians. But then, God's ways aren't always our ways. Those flaws kept Peter humble: a message for all leaders. :lol:
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