Positive Predestination and Logic

General Christian Theology
Post Reply
Adam
Posts: 168
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:35 pm
Location: Papua New Guinea
Affiliation: Kingdom Christian

Positive Predestination and Logic

Post by Adam »

During my recent trip to the village, some Lutheran missionaries who live down the road from us invited us over for dinner. There were four of us from the construction crew that was building our house, and we were each sharing about our denominational backgrounds. I mentioned that I was Assemblies of God in name but that I identified more with Anabaptists. Eventually we got into a discussion and the topic of predestination came up. Lutherans believe in 'positive predestination', which they summarize with the rather crude statement: "If you go to heaven, it is through no effort of your own. If you go to hell, it is your own d*mn fault." This makes absolutely no sense to me. At least the Calvinist interpretation of so-called 'double predestination' is intellectually cohesive because it states that God arbitrarily predestines some for heaven and some for hell, but to suggest that it is my own fault that God didn't predestine me for heaven seems completely illogical, and my Lutheran friend admitted that it is not something that can be comprehended by the human mind.

While I believe that there are things that are mysteries to us as human beings that we will not know this side of heaven (and maybe not on the other side either), should we draw the line at things that are decidedly illogical or contradictory? For example, if God predestines some for heaven and they can't go to heaven through any work of their own, logically those whom God does not predestine for heaven are predestined to hell. So how can we say it is their own fault?

I bring this up to ask the larger question of the role that logic should play in informing our faith. For example, I am comfortable saying something like: "I can accept that A+B=4 but I just don't know what A and B equal. That is a mystery to me." But I am not comfortable with saying something like: "I am willing to accept that 2+3=4 even though I know logically that it equals 5."

Where do we draw the line between things that are mysteries and paradoxes and things that are logically inconsistent and contradictory? I know most who hold to Reformation theology would say that our logic and reasoning is also fallen and unreliable, but is there a role for logic and reasoning in our faith to avoid the pitfalls of obvious contradictions and inconsistencies?
0 x
Adam
Posts: 168
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:35 pm
Location: Papua New Guinea
Affiliation: Kingdom Christian

Re: Positive Predestination and Logic

Post by Adam »

Just to be clear, I am not advocating for either positive or double predestination. I am just stating that the Calvinist view of predestination seems to be the more logical of the two.
0 x
Sudsy
Posts: 5859
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Positive Predestination and Logic

Post by Sudsy »

Personally, I think logic and reasonings that have scriptural support are important to our beliefs but knowing we still can get things wrong. I'm a fairly big Greg Boyd fan and love his podcasts and how he reasons out scriptural meanings even when they conflict with traditional Christian beliefs. I especially enjoy his reasonings using scripture on topics like free will.

But I don't know of a way one can "draw the line" on some topics when they appear to have obvious contradictions and inconsistencies. Most I know who put high value on human logic come up with some pretty stretched logic to explain away conflicting scriptures.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
temporal1
Posts: 16279
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:09 pm
Location: U.S. midwest and PNW
Affiliation: Christian other

Re: Positive Predestination and Logic

Post by temporal1 »

Adam wrote:Just to be clear, I am not advocating for either positive or double predestination. I am just stating that the Calvinist view of predestination seems to be the more logical of the two.
in other posts, you have shared you recognize not all Mennonites believe or behave the same way .. i've also learned this (on this forum, i believe you arrived with awareness?) .. the same is true for Lutherans/Protestants, and, Catholics. especially, post-1980's, there has been tremendous division within churches. ELCA is the largest branch of Lutherans, as MCUSA (was?) .. i'm not sure if that remains true. Catholics around the world seem "not aligned" with many U.S. Catholics (?) .. big numbers, lots of public presence, do not guarantee Light.

when someone speaks with Light, their words resonate. no matter their faith label.

Matthew 24:41
Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come.…


even on this forum, i often remember one of my long time favorite passages:

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, lean not unto thine own understanding.


it's very difficult for human-law-driven 21st Century western world folks to grasp "not leaning unto their own understanding," being taught from birth their understanding is all there is.

i appreciated your words in another thread comparing those Jesus and His disciples met on earth, those already believing in God, compared with many in today's world, who have been taught God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit are nothing more than fairy tales; they're more apt to be formally taught respect for Greek mythology, pagan worship, any religion other than Christianity, than even (allowed) to read/discuss scriptures.

if entering college from a Christian background, the average state college graduate has turned away from his/her family, and, the faith they were raised on. many now graduate claiming to be agnostic or atheist. i presume students from other religions, Buddhists, Muslims, etc., are not so devastated (?) .. my perception is they are not. you may know better.
0 x
Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
UNKNOWN
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Positive Predestination and Logic

Post by MaxPC »

Adam wrote:During my recent trip to the village, some Lutheran missionaries who live down the road from us invited us over for dinner. There were four of us from the construction crew that was building our house, and we were each sharing about our denominational backgrounds. I mentioned that I was Assemblies of God in name but that I identified more with Anabaptists. Eventually we got into a discussion and the topic of predestination came up. Lutherans believe in 'positive predestination', which they summarize with the rather crude statement: "If you go to heaven, it is through no effort of your own. If you go to hell, it is your own d*mn fault." This makes absolutely no sense to me. At least the Calvinist interpretation of so-called 'double predestination' is intellectually cohesive because it states that God arbitrarily predestines some for heaven and some for hell, but to suggest that it is my own fault that God didn't predestine me for heaven seems completely illogical, and my Lutheran friend admitted that it is not something that can be comprehended by the human mind.

While I believe that there are things that are mysteries to us as human beings that we will not know this side of heaven (and maybe not on the other side either), should we draw the line at things that are decidedly illogical or contradictory? For example, if God predestines some for heaven and they can't go to heaven through any work of their own, logically those whom God does not predestine for heaven are predestined to hell. So how can we say it is their own fault?

I bring this up to ask the larger question of the role that logic should play in informing our faith. For example, I am comfortable saying something like: "I can accept that A+B=4 but I just don't know what A and B equal. That is a mystery to me." But I am not comfortable with saying something like: "I am willing to accept that 2+3=4 even though I know logically that it equals 5."

Where do we draw the line between things that are mysteries and paradoxes and things that are logically inconsistent and contradictory? I know most who hold to Reformation theology would say that our logic and reasoning is also fallen and unreliable, but is there a role for logic and reasoning in our faith to avoid the pitfalls of obvious contradictions and inconsistencies?
Great thread, Adam.

My answer to your bolded query: in Catholic theological and philosophical academia (I call it Catholic World) the answer is that we usually draw those lines based upon Scriptural evidence, writings of the Church Fathers, etc., even using the sciences.

The line is drawn under a concept as mystery when our Catholic logicians wrestle with it for several hundred years and find no clear answer.

To end the wrangling, the Magisterium then declares it as a doctrine of Faith/dogma. In Catholic speak that means we accept this mystery by faith understanding it's true.
Examples:
-Jesus as fully human and fully Son Of God.
-The Virgin birth, etc.

In short, in Catholic World some mysteries remain mysteries even after centuries of work by the best logicians in the field.
YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)
:D
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
User avatar
gcdonner
Posts: 2025
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:17 am
Location: Holladay, TN
Affiliation: Anabaptiluthercostal

Re: Positive Predestination and Logic

Post by gcdonner »

Adam wrote:During my recent trip to the village, some Lutheran missionaries who live down the road from us invited us over for dinner. There were four of us from the construction crew that was building our house, and we were each sharing about our denominational backgrounds. I mentioned that I was Assemblies of God in name but that I identified more with Anabaptists. Eventually we got into a discussion and the topic of predestination came up. Lutherans believe in 'positive predestination', which they summarize with the rather crude statement: "If you go to heaven, it is through no effort of your own. If you go to hell, it is your own d*mn fault." This makes absolutely no sense to me. At least the Calvinist interpretation of so-called 'double predestination' is intellectually cohesive because it states that God arbitrarily predestines some for heaven and some for hell, but to suggest that it is my own fault that God didn't predestine me for heaven seems completely illogical, and my Lutheran friend admitted that it is not something that can be comprehended by the human mind.

While I believe that there are things that are mysteries to us as human beings that we will not know this side of heaven (and maybe not on the other side either), should we draw the line at things that are decidedly illogical or contradictory? For example, if God predestines some for heaven and they can't go to heaven through any work of their own, logically those whom God does not predestine for heaven are predestined to hell. So how can we say it is their own fault?

I bring this up to ask the larger question of the role that logic should play in informing our faith. For example, I am comfortable saying something like: "I can accept that A+B=4 but I just don't know what A and B equal. That is a mystery to me." But I am not comfortable with saying something like: "I am willing to accept that 2+3=4 even though I know logically that it equals 5."

Where do we draw the line between things that are mysteries and paradoxes and things that are logically inconsistent and contradictory? I know most who hold to Reformation theology would say that our logic and reasoning is also fallen and unreliable, but is there a role for logic and reasoning in our faith to avoid the pitfalls of obvious contradictions and inconsistencies?
Most Lutherans believe in baptismal regeneration in that when an infant is baptized, God receives them into his kingdom and they are "saved", though some also believe that the choice of a child (early teens, generally) at the time of confirmation, "confirms" their faith in Christ and assures salvation.

The particular church we are attending presently puts less emphasis on the first and more on the latter, I suspect as a result of the pastor's charismatic influences earlier in his life.
Whether Lutheran or Calvinist in view, it is still essentially the same as RC theology in that if you are baptized in the Church, then you are safe. "It is all of God".

I believe in a Divine entanglement, since I believe that God created us with the ability to choose, though no one chooses who hasn't been drawn by the Father, according to Jesus. I also don't believe in "free" will, since we are dead in sin before enlightenment by the Holy Spirit and dead men don't think at all.

I suspect that the reality lies somewhere in between free will and absolute predestination. God predestines those who follow Christ to be conformed to his image.
The bottom line is that it is all according to God's foreknowledge, don't you think?
0 x
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed
rightly dividing the word of truth
.
Soloist
Posts: 5495
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:49 pm
Affiliation: CM Seeker

Re: Positive Predestination and Logic

Post by Soloist »

I find that one, I have no opinion on predestination other then the passage
Ezek 33:12-16
Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his [righteousness] in the day that he sinneth.
When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
[If] the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
As for logic, I find it fails to explain everything but if someone believes something that is not directly stated in the Bible and seems un-logical I would have trouble believing it.
0 x
Soloist, but I hate singing alone
Soloist, but my wife posts with me
Soloist, but I believe in community
Soloist, but I want God in the pilot seat
Post Reply