Spirit Led Christians

General Christian Theology

What does it mean to be lead by the Spirit?

 
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MaxPC
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by MaxPC »

I'm edified by this excellent thread. Thank you.

The comments on the Calvinists and Arminius reminds me of that period in history in which Jesus' words were forgotten in Mark 9:
[bible]Mark 9, 38-41[/bible]
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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lesterb
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by lesterb »

There have been Christians throughout history who tried to "restart" Christianity by going back to the Bible and following it through the direction of the Spirit. As far as I can tell many of these were honest, but they came out in different places.

When you look at these people, it does seem to make a difference on the ratio of Bible:Spirit. For instance, Montanus really emphasized revelation and prophecy. He was a conservative, which attracted Tertullian into his fold, but in the end it was an over emphasis of Spirit in the ratio that led the Montanists astray.

Augustine, on the other hand, was a theologian, and based a lot of his thinking on human intellect. He is known as the father of Western Theology, and I feel that he took the church away from the simplicity of Bible:Spirit.

Pelagius over emphasized the importance of works and didn't believe in original sin, or the carnal nature.

Peter Waldo found Christ in the gospels and his followers walked the streets reading the gospels in the vernacular. This opened the door for a tremendous outpouring of the Spirit.

The Anabaptists took the same approach. But eventually an overemphasis on the letter at the cost of the spirit, led the Dutch part of the movement into legalism, while the Swiss part of the movement took the opposite route.

Huss, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Hoffman, and others were all honest seekers for truth, I think. Somehow, through history, different Christians took differing routes. That is still happening.

So how can we get the right formula? Is there anyway of removing our humanity from the mix and finding Truth that way? I wonder if God hasn't purposely kept this from happening. The human element keeps the Gospel on a human level. So maybe the ratio is humanity:Bible:Spirit. It's the humanity element that makes the differences in outcome, I think. But somehow God has made that part of the formula. Our imperfection emphasizes God's perfection.
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.
(2Co 4:4-7)
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MaxPC
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by MaxPC »

Lester, you gave some outstanding examples of the prominent figures in Christianity.

Seeing that list gives me a renewed sense of awe of how God gives the different gifts of the Holy Spirit to different people; and how each of those individuals balance each other with their respective gifts at different times in history.

Each individual seems to be a man of his time yet contributes to the work of Christ throughout all of time as part of the Body of Christ.
YMMV :D
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Bootstrap
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Bootstrap »

I find I hear God's answers best when I let him tell me what the question is. When suffering, it never helps me to ask how God could allow that kind of suffering, it only helps to ask to see his presence and love and to grow in trust.

To me, many of the things we fight about are confident answers to the wrong question. For instance, God didn't give us a systematic theology in our Bibles, but sometimes we insist on creating one ourselves and rejecting anyone who disagrees with our creation. We do that in many other domains, too.

I feel that way about other Christians who disagree with me about something I find important, such as infant baptism. Some of them clearly demonstrate the Holy Spirit in the way they live their lives. But if I ask God to show me if they are also led by the Holy Spirit, despite disagreeing with me on infant baptism, that's probably the wrong question. It's probably more important to ask God to show me the speck of dust in my own eye, and to teach me how to seek him.
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Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Sudsy »

Neto wrote:
Sudsy wrote:... I wonder just how being Spirit led could give Calvinists and Arminians such different views of Jesus. Renown bible scholars over the past few centuries seem to have major differences on the character of God.
Anabaptists are not Arminians. Arminius was a follower of John Calvin, and died as a "Calvinist". (I think they may have dug him up later, to desecrate his bones or something - don't recall for sure.) That is a dispute within Calvinism, not our "battle". The two views pick different Scriptures and run with them, ignoring the Scriptures the opposing view has picked. A Biblicist will look at all of them, and realizing that there are mysteries we do not understand, accept all of the verses and the truths they represent.
Surprised. :o I have only ran into one Anabaptist who was a Calvinist in TULIP belief. Jacobus Arminius was originally a Calvinist but developed a theology quite different from Calvin. Neto, I am curious as to where you read that Arminius "died as a Calvinist".

I would think the vast majority of Anabaptists do not have an understanding of God and how He saves us as the Calvinists do. However, I guess my point was about how each opposing view of God's character can be Spirit led. I'm just amazed at how God has left areas such as these that we should regard as mysteries. I look forward to the day when this all will be made clear.
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Neto
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Neto »

Sudsy wrote:
Neto wrote:
Sudsy wrote:... I wonder just how being Spirit led could give Calvinists and Arminians such different views of Jesus. Renown bible scholars over the past few centuries seem to have major differences on the character of God.
Anabaptists are not Arminians. Arminius was a follower of John Calvin, and died as a "Calvinist". (I think they may have dug him up later, to desecrate his bones or something - don't recall for sure.) That is a dispute within Calvinism, not our "battle". The two views pick different Scriptures and run with them, ignoring the Scriptures the opposing view has picked. A Biblicist will look at all of them, and realizing that there are mysteries we do not understand, accept all of the verses and the truths they represent.
Surprised. :o I have only ran into one Anabaptist who was a Calvinist in TULIP belief. Jacobus Arminius was originally a Calvinist but developed a theology quite different from Calvin. Neto, I am curious as to where you read that Arminius "died as a Calvinist".

I would think the vast majority of Anabaptists do not have an understanding of God and how He saves us as the Calvinists do. However, I guess my point was about how each opposing view of God's character can be Spirit led. I'm just amazed at how God has left areas such as these that we should regard as mysteries. I look forward to the day when this all will be made clear.
I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply that anabaptists are Calvinists. They are neither. I'll need to find a source about my statement regarding Arminius dying as a follower of Calvin. They were also not contemporaries, and John Calvin did not write T.U.L.I.P. - his later followers did, and as I understand, they wrote it AFTER Arminius wrote his articles of Remonstrance, an effort to clarify some parts of Calvinist belief at that time that he found troubling. But I'm not the best person to speak to this issue, because I haven't studied it in any great detail. (Because it is not our battle. It is a dispute within Calvinism, created by proof texting, and primarily by over-systematization of doctrine. They filled in the gaps in different ways, and so they fought about it.)
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Ernie wrote:
ohio jones wrote:
When two "Christians" disagree on an important issue, one is NOT led by the Spirit. The Bible says we are to "be of one mind.
This sounds good on the surface, assuming that the issue really is an important one, but:
1. Maybe neither of them are led by the Spirit.
2. Maybe they have different information, experience, cultural backgrounds, and other factors that also influence their position (and those things may even be arranged by God); if those things were identical, maybe they would agree.
Sometimes the Spirit will lead two Christians to disagree. We can't put God in a box.
I don't agree with this statement. But I would say that sometimes two Spirit-led Christians will disagree. The disagreement can cause both of them to listen more closely to the Spirit as they work through that difference.
I agree with all of this OJ.

What Wayne and I would idealize is a situation where "it seemed good the Holy Spirit and to us" to do a certain thing.

Regarding Paul and Barnabas, I just mentioned this in a sermon last night that I think at least one of them was being proud, maybe both. The New Testament says the "contention was sharp". Proverbs says, "Only by pride comes contention."

I think that "walking in the Spirit" and "having the mind of Christ" are very similar. Walking in the Spirit means being open to God's direction. Having the mind of Christ means aligning oneself with Christ. I don't think those who are not aligning their minds with Christ are going to very often get direction from God. I don't think those who stubbornly tout their views on things and live life independently of God and his people are going to develop the mind of Christ.
My real issue is the cavalier way so many Christians treat the whole question of God's activity among us through the Holy Spirit today. On an individual level we too frequently cite a sense of a "leading of the Spirit" in making personal decisions. Corporately we study debate and vote and assert that our corporate decision is God's leading. We assume that the Holy Spirit is actively speaking to us and leading us (and others, even if they are led to diametrically opposite directions from us).

I voted for number 1, but I would also have voted for "The Spirit will always show His leading by a 100% unanimity in a brotherhood of people who are wholly dedicated selflessly to God and to his brothers and sisters."

I think if we are serious about the reality of a living, active Holy Spirit, we would start with the assumption that the Holy Spirit is not speaking to us and then try to get ourselves into a spiritual position as a group so that we can actually hear the same voice speaking - without ever assuming that that voice will always be heard. I think because we think our subconscious inclinations are a "still small voice" and we are surrounded by people of like ethnicity and social experience we will seldom, if ever, experience a crystal clear and unambiguous voice of God. And that should make us shudder!
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Neto »

Re: The dispute in Calvinism referred to above:
(We’re off-topic with this, so I won’t write much about it.)

John Calvin 1509 – 1564
Jacob Arminius 1560 – 1609

A couple of quotes from the Wikipedia article about Arminius:
Following his death, his challenge to the Reformed standard, the Belgic Confession, provoked ample discussion at the Synod of Dort, which crafted the five points of Calvinism in response to Arminius's teaching.
The theology of Arminianism did not become fully developed during Arminius' lifetime, but after his death (1609) the Five articles of the Remonstrants (1610) systematized and formalized the ideas. But the Calvinist Synod of Dort (1618–19), convening for the purpose of condemning Arminius' theology, declared it and its adherents anathemas, defined the five points of Calvinism, and persecuted Arminian pastors who remained in the Netherlands.
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Neto »

Wayne in Maine wrote: My real issue is the cavalier way so many Christians treat the whole question of God's activity among us through the Holy Spirit today. On an individual level we too frequently cite a sense of a "leading of the Spirit" in making personal decisions. Corporately we study debate and vote and assert that our corporate decision is God's leading. We assume that the Holy Spirit is actively speaking to us and leading us (and others, even if they are led to diametrically opposite directions from us).
....
I am reminded of one of the questions I was asked during the application process to serve under Wycliffe Bible Translators.

Something like "Do you have a calling from God to serve in WBT?" I said "No, I believe I am called to serve God through Bible translation, but I have no specific call to WBT." and it raised a ruckus. I explained that I felt that if I said I had a call to WBT, and they decided not to call me to serve under them, then it would produce this conflict between "leadings of the Holy Spirit", that I was applying for a job, and it didn't guarantee that I would accept the position offered. (The latter part of this drew a rant about how much it cost them to process an application.) Another guy in the training program had a very clear call from God to serve in WBT, and spoke of it often in conversations in the dining hall, and elsewhere. WBT, however, decided that they did not have a leading of the Spirit to accept him as a member. He was apparently shamed & crushed (or very angry, or concluding that WBT was not in tune with the Spirit), and left the school w/o finishing the semester, and w/o telling anyone in the administration.
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by MaxPC »

Neto wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote: My real issue is the cavalier way so many Christians treat the whole question of God's activity among us through the Holy Spirit today. On an individual level we too frequently cite a sense of a "leading of the Spirit" in making personal decisions. Corporately we study debate and vote and assert that our corporate decision is God's leading. We assume that the Holy Spirit is actively speaking to us and leading us (and others, even if they are led to diametrically opposite directions from us).
....
I am reminded of one of the questions I was asked during the application process to serve under Wycliffe Bible Translators.

Something like "Do you have a calling from God to serve in WBT?" I said "No, I believe I am called to serve God through Bible translation, but I have no specific call to WBT." and it raised a ruckus. I explained that I felt that if I said I had a call to WBT, and they decided not to call me to serve under them, then it would produce this conflict between "leadings of the Holy Spirit", that I was applying for a job, and it didn't guarantee that I would accept the position offered. (The latter part of this drew a rant about how much it cost them to process an application.) Another guy in the training program had a very clear call from God to serve in WBT, and spoke of it often in conversations in the dining hall, and elsewhere. WBT, however, decided that they did not have a leading of the Spirit to accept him as a member. He was apparently shamed & crushed (or very angry, or concluding that WBT was not in tune with the Spirit), and left the school w/o finishing the semester, and w/o telling anyone in the administration.
That's truly sad. I wonder what happened to him?
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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