Spirit Led Christians

General Christian Theology

What does it mean to be lead by the Spirit?

 
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Sudsy
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Sudsy »

A little more thinking out loud, fwiw.

One area that has often perplexed me on this subject is many Christian beliefs. Things like Calvinist versus Arminian debates where both sides pray for and believe they receive the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Or right here on this forum with D&R, WIM, baptism, evangelism, etc, etc differences when all sides believe the truth that the HS leads us into is their understanding of the truth. Why did God not make scripture more black and white in it's meaning ? Doesn't this fly in the face of what Jesus so desired that we be one ? Didn't Jesus understand that when He said the HS being the Spirit of truth, the Spirit was not going to reveal one set of truths to all believers ? But thats where we sit and there seems to me to be more variations (i.e. open theism amongst evangelicals) continuing to add to the differences. Does that puzzle any of you when all of these beliefs are thought to be Spirit lead ?

So, if we can't get our beliefs about the scriptures in sync, how can we trust that our personal guidance by the Holy Spirit is clear in our practise ? How do these differences make Christians appear in the eyes of non-believers ? Yet most of us concede that God has His Church amongst all this confusion and it goes beyond any specific church organization. Perhaps what grieves the Holy Spirit the most is our confidence in what He has not revealed as truth. Seems to me like pride gets quite involved in what we see as truth more than humility.

Would like to hear how others explain how we can know the voice of the Spirit in daily living when we know that '"Spirit-led" folk have come up with the beliefs we hold to and yet they are not the same for all believers.
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Neto
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Neto »

lesterb wrote:…. I'd like to discuss this from a broader perspective. For instance, Paul and Barnabas disagreed very strongly about including John Mark on their next missionary journey. Was Paul directed by the Spirit and Barnabas simply mislead by his empathy? ….
Ernie wrote: Regarding Paul and Barnabas, I just mentioned this in a sermon last night that I think at least one of them was being proud, maybe both. The New Testament says the "contention was sharp". Proverbs says, "Only by pride comes contention."
In respect to the disagreement between Paul & Barnabas, I tend to agree that they were both wrong. They were mainly both wrong in the way to which Ernie refers, and perhaps also wrong in not recognizing that they needed to separate their evangelistic efforts in order to be more effective. Paul may have been correct in his feeling that John Mark was not suitable for the task he envisioned, but he was evidently wrong in the way in which he seems to have written him off. Barnabas was the only one in Jerusalem who would touch Saul (Paul) with a three cubit pole in those early days after his conversion. Baranabas was a person who saw the potential in people, and in Saul’s case, risked his life for the potential he saw in him. Remember that when Saul left Jerusalem, Luke records that “they had peace”. Was this juxtaposition of events a coincidence, or was Saul at least part of the cause of the difficulties the congregation in Jerusalem was facing in those days? (I suspect the latter.) Barnabas was a mentor.
In thinking about this case, I automatically think of the last ‘outreach’ from our congregation. There were some underlying disagreements in the congregation, but there was a strong effort to deny this – to pretend that the up-coming division was entirely devoid of any such cause. I commented then, when starting the new congregation was being considered, that this episode between Paul & Barnabas ought to be instructive for us, that we ought to see how much better it would have been if Paul had responded something like the following:
Brother Baranabas, I know that you are a patient man, one who can come along side someone to help them as they move into greater responsibility. I do think that John Mark is not ready to take on the responsibilities that would be required of him on the trip we have proposed. So in thinking more about this, I wonder if we should not separate our efforts. You take John Mark, and go visit some of the more established congregations. I’ll find someone else, perhaps Brother Silas, and go on the trip we had planned to take together. We’ll double our effectiveness, and John Mark can grow into greater responsibility.
Instead, they both seem to have dug in their heels.
lesterb wrote:.... I'd like to think that the Spirit speaks clearly, like Sudsy said. But various times over the years, I've been bothered by situations that I found difficult to sort out. It was hard to know which side the Spirit was taking and which side was being defended by self or my own desires.

I edited a book on the Holy Spirit for Rod and Staff one time. The author was a very interesting writer, who was also a friend of mine. The chapter in that book that spoke to me the clearest was one entitled something like, "Where is God When the Spirit is Silent." That may not be an exact quote. Interestingly, that was the one chapter that the review committee made me cut out. Neither of the other committee members had my type of personality, and life was more or less clear cut, and black and white for them. It hasn't been that way for me, and I think this probably relates to my personality.
....
That sounds like a very interesting chapter/book. I don’t know what the other chapters covered, but I can imagine that I would read that chapter first. I don’t know if it has anything to do with personality, or not (no feeling either way – I just don’t know), but I have experienced some dark times when the sky seemed as hard as concrete.
RZehr wrote:.... I believe there are times, decisions, and subjects one which the Holy Spirit is silent on the minor things.
For example - Sometimes I, as a father, tell my children to go clean their room. That is the whole of the instruction. Now for them to go up to their room and debate and argue and waste time trying to discern whether I would rather have them put the green legos or the blue legos away first, would be silly. I simply don't care what they do first, I just want it done. I don't care if they vacuum the floor diagonally, or which side of the room they begin. I will find pleasure in their willing, cheerful effort.
I believe there are times that God gives us general instructions and just leaves the details up to us, and blesses our honest efforts.
It seems to me that sometimes he is also silent on some pretty major things. The year of 2007 was a year like that for me – I lost my job, and couldn’t find another – all I could find was a couple of very part-time ones. Then (because I stopped doing Bible translation) I went through the final steps of the loss of my identity as a Bible translator, as the person I was in the eyes of the people with whom we had lived for 17 years. Then we went through the tragic death of someone very close to our family.

I like this from Sudsy, too.
Sudsy wrote: ...make sure we isolate ourselves in some place ... to give God quality time with minimal distractions to commune with Him and to spend much more time at listening than speaking. .... A sheep does not automatically know the shepherd's voice but learns to know it through hearing it often. I think reading the scriptures is also a means God uses to teach us to hear His voice. ....

I do think also that it is possible that we may go through times when God will not speak. This is a challenge to our faith that He is still listening. Telling God that we will trust Him even when we don't hear Him speak and not becoming anxious may be some growth that God is working out in us. God seems to honour faithfulness when immediate or quick results are not evident.

Whether or not God speaks more black and white to certain personalities more than others, I have no thoughts on this other than I don't see why He would limit Himself to a set way regardless of our frame. ....
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Sudsy
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote:In these somewhat parallel passages;
Ephesians 5:18-21English Standard Version (ESV)
18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, 20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Colossians 3:16-17English Standard Version (ESV)
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Paul uses two different terms, can we learn anything from that?
So, who has the word of Christ dwelling in them or are filled with the Spirit, the Calvinist or the Arminian ? The Catholic or the Protestant ? The Charismatic or the non-Charismatic ? The Anabaptist or the non-Anabaptist ?
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silentreader
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:In these somewhat parallel passages;
Ephesians 5:18-21English Standard Version (ESV)
18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, 20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Colossians 3:16-17English Standard Version (ESV)
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Paul uses two different terms, can we learn anything from that?
So, who has the word of Christ dwelling in them or are filled with the Spirit, the Calvinist or the Arminian ? The Catholic or the Protestant ? The Charismatic or the non-Charismatic ? The Anabaptist or the non-Anabaptist ?
I'm not sure that it can be either/or, at least not always. There are some things, especially in the Calvinist/Arminian debate, that our finite minds think are mutually exclusive, when actually they blend into each other in some areas. We have a tendency to look for polarity when we should be looking for similarity, or unity.
I think that you had said something to the effect that the Holy Spirit 'replaces' Christ, that idea kind of troubles me.
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Ernie
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Ernie »

RZehr wrote:My Grandfather was a cantankerous, cynical man.
Is that where you got it?!
:lol:

No. Just kidding
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silentreader
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by silentreader »

silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
So, who has the word of Christ dwelling in them or are filled with the Spirit, the Calvinist or the Arminian ? The Catholic or the Protestant ? The Charismatic or the non-Charismatic ? The Anabaptist or the non-Anabaptist ?
I'm not sure that it can be either/or, at least not always. There are some things, especially in the Calvinist/Arminian debate, that our finite minds think are mutually exclusive, when actually they blend into each other in some areas. We have a tendency to look for polarity when we should be looking for similarity, or unity.
I think that you had said something to the effect that the Holy Spirit 'replaces' Christ, that idea kind of troubles me.
A few more thoughts; the Holy Spirit has imperfect people to work with, who are too often somewhat governed by emotion, personal preferences, and even outright bias. In the case of Paul/Barnabas/John Mark, I expect that either Paul or Barnabas, or both, were allowing emotions and/or preferences to obstruct the clear guidance of the Holy Spirit. This kind of thing is probably not uncommon today.
Probably the more we cultivate the mind of Christ, the easier it will be for the Holy Spirit to speak to us.

When I read John 15 and 16, it suggests to me that one of the works of the Holy Spirit is to speak of or perhaps to 'clarify' Christ. I do not think we can separate the two in our Christian life.
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Adam
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Adam »

I would define being spirit-led in two ways:

(1) Allowing the Holy Spirit to remind you, convict you, and empower you to do what God's Word says, especially in moments where you are naturally inclined to do the opposite.

(2) Following that still, small voice in matters where Scripture is silent.

I will offer a couple of examples to clarify what I mean. We just returned yesterday from building our house in the village in Enga. At one point we needed to gather a large quantity of stones to build a drain field for our septic tank. We went to a local river that was on the land of a neighboring tribe. One of the tribesmen forbid us from taking stones from the river. The men who had come to help me argued with him for a while to try to change his mind, but he wouldn't budge. In my flesh, I started thinking of things that I could say, like, "Well, if you don't help me, then when you need a ride into town, I am not going to help you." But the Holy Spirit reminded me to love others, especially those who aren't loving towards me. So, instead, when it became clear that he wasn't going to help us and allow us to take stones, I went over to him and said, "You don't want to help us, but that is okay. When I go into town, I will still give you a ride in my car if you want. And I am not angry with you. We are still friends." After saying that, we started walking back to the truck, and he said, "Go ahead and take some stones," and he even helped us to load the truck! I would humbly suggest that the Spirit led me to respond in that way, even though in my flesh I was inclined to respond in the exact opposite way. The Spirit reminded me to love someone who wasn't showing love to me. I offer this as an example of point 1 above.

Regarding point 2, we had a lot of difficulty in finding a place to build our house. We explored many locations, but we never found a location that 'felt right' for lack of a better term. When it seemed that there were no more good options, I went to my friend Benjamin's house, and he offered to have us build on his land. As soon as he offered it, I sensed that the Holy Spirit was leading me and showing me that that was the place where we should build. This was confirmed my wife felt the same way. (We had not been in agreement about other places.) Does that mean that we will never have any problems in that location? I don't believe so. I even believe that our house could very well be burned to the ground one day in tribal fighting. Nevertheless, I do believe that it is where the Holy Spirit was leading us to build. There is nothing in the Scriptures about where we should build a house, and I don't believe that the Holy Spirit will always lead every person everywhere with respect to where they should live, but in this particular case I did sense that the Spirit was leading us. Does that mean that I will always be sensitive enough to hear the still, small voice accurately. I doubt it. But I do believe that still, small voice is speaking, at least in some circumstances that Scripture is silent about. But it will never lead us to do anything that is contrary to Scripture.

As a result of my points above, I voted "Other" on the poll as I did not believe any of the items were a good description of what it means to be Spirit-led.
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Neto
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Neto »

silentreader wrote: I think that you had said something to the effect that the Holy Spirit 'replaces' Christ, that idea kind of troubles me.
Here’s where Sudsy made that comment: Page 1, 2-20-17 3:24 PM
Sudsy wrote:….
If the Holy Spirt is the replacement for Jesus, as scripture says He is, then when Jesus said that we can know His voice as a sheep knows the voice of their shepherd and will not follow another's voice, then don't you think the voice of the Spirit should be a clear voice that is distinct from all other voices ? It would seem to me that if this is true, most of us do not know the Holy Spirit that well, which means we don't know Jesus that well.
….
It did also take me off guard too, but I took it in the sense in which Christ himself said, “I am going away, but I will not leave you comfortless, but will send the Spirit.”
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Sudsy
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader, referring to your previous post -
I'm not sure that it can be either/or, at least not always. There are some things, especially in the Calvinist/Arminian debate, that our finite minds think are mutually exclusive, when actually they blend into each other in some areas. We have a tendency to look for polarity when we should be looking for similarity, or unity.
1) I agree yet in the TULIP, Calvinist understanding of God, that view of God seems to me to be so different than the God represented by Jesus. I understand the TULIP logic and the supporting scriptures but is that how God saves people when other scriptures and Jesus seem to me to describe God so differently. I don't see the similarities other than similar terms are used (i.e. depravity, election, perseverance). The unity that I found over the past 2 years in a Baptist church was that regardless of how we believed God saves us, the "whosoever will may come" was still being preached and people were being saved and having changed hearts. I just am puzzled though at how different ones view of God can be and both sides believe they are Spirit directed.
I think that you had said something to the effect that the Holy Spirit 'replaces' Christ, that idea kind of troubles me.


I was thinking of what Jesus said before leaving this earth. John 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever — the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and He will be in you. They would not have Jesus anymore as their Advocate to teach them truth and in that sense the Spirit is the replacement for Jesus. He is the ongoing distributor of God's truth to us and points out to us the truth about Jesus. That is my understanding of Him and so I wonder just how being Spirit led could give Calvinists and Arminians such different views of Jesus. Renown bible scholars over the past few centuries seem to have major differences on the character of God.
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Neto
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Neto »

Sudsy wrote:... I wonder just how being Spirit led could give Calvinists and Arminians such different views of Jesus. Renown bible scholars over the past few centuries seem to have major differences on the character of God.
Anabaptists are not Arminians. Arminius was a follower of John Calvin, and died as a "Calvinist". (I think they may have dug him up later, to desecrate his bones or something - don't recall for sure.) That is a dispute within Calvinism, not our "battle". The two views pick different Scriptures and run with them, ignoring the Scriptures the opposing view has picked. A Biblicist will look at all of them, and realizing that there are mysteries we do not understand, accept all of the verses and the truths they represent.
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