Spirit Led Christians

General Christian Theology

What does it mean to be lead by the Spirit?

 
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lesterb
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Spirit Led Christians

Post by lesterb »

Wayne in Maine wrote:Voting just demonstrates to me once again that most of us who believe we are being led by the Holy Spirit are not, in fact, being led by the Holy Spirit. If we were then all Christians lead by the Holy Spirit would vote for the same candidates. So if we can't honestly say the Holy Spirit can be depended on as a guide for voting, then we have to admit that it's really just our own personal political inclinations leading us to exercise our franchise along partisan, not spiritual lines.

The very act of voting divides the church.
I'd like to discuss this from a broader perspective. For instance, Paul and Barnabas disagreed very strongly about including John Mark on their next missionary journey. Was Paul directed by the Spirit and Barnabas simply mislead by his empathy?

If so, how can we avoid his mistake? And if not, how can we handle this kind of incident without destroying other Christians or dividing a church.

I'm sure you can think of your own illustrations. But I'm worried about the kind of assumptions that Wayne is making in his post. This is the kind of thing that has destroyed congregations in the past. Can we judge the direction of the spirit by the unity in the church on issues? If I nominate a brother for minister and God chooses someone else, was I then not Spirit led?

Etc.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Bootstrap »

Excellent poll!

One question: if I get the answers wrong, does that mean I'm not led by the Spirit? (ducks)
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ohio jones
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by ohio jones »

When two "Christians" disagree on an important issue, one is NOT led by the Spirit. The Bible says we are to "be of one mind.
This sounds good on the surface, assuming that the issue really is an important one, but:
1. Maybe neither of them are led by the Spirit.
2. Maybe they have different information, experience, cultural backgrounds, and other factors that also influence their position (and those things may even be arranged by God); if those things were identical, maybe they would agree.
Sometimes the Spirit will lead two Christians to disagree. We can't put God in a box.
I don't agree with this statement. But I would say that sometimes two Spirit-led Christians will disagree. The disagreement can cause both of them to listen more closely to the Spirit as they work through that difference.
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Ernie
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Ernie »

ohio jones wrote:
When two "Christians" disagree on an important issue, one is NOT led by the Spirit. The Bible says we are to "be of one mind.
This sounds good on the surface, assuming that the issue really is an important one, but:
1. Maybe neither of them are led by the Spirit.
2. Maybe they have different information, experience, cultural backgrounds, and other factors that also influence their position (and those things may even be arranged by God); if those things were identical, maybe they would agree.
Sometimes the Spirit will lead two Christians to disagree. We can't put God in a box.
I don't agree with this statement. But I would say that sometimes two Spirit-led Christians will disagree. The disagreement can cause both of them to listen more closely to the Spirit as they work through that difference.
I agree with all of this OJ.

What Wayne and I would idealize is a situation where "it seemed good the Holy Spirit and to us" to do a certain thing.

Regarding Paul and Barnabas, I just mentioned this in a sermon last night that I think at least one of them was being proud, maybe both. The New Testament says the "contention was sharp". Proverbs says, "Only by pride comes contention."

I think that "walking in the Spirit" and "having the mind of Christ" are very similar. Walking in the Spirit means being open to God's direction. Having the mind of Christ means aligning oneself with Christ. I don't think those who are not aligning their minds with Christ are going to very often get direction from God. I don't think those who stubbornly tout their views on things and live life independently of God and his people are going to develop the mind of Christ.
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Sudsy
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Sudsy »

A few questions and comments to get more opinions as I believe this is an extremely important issue in our walk of faith -

If the Holy Spirt is the replacement for Jesus, as scripture says He is, then when Jesus said that we can know His voice as a sheep knows the voice of their shepherd and will not follow another's voice, then don't you think the voice of the Spirit should be a clear voice that is distinct from all other voices ? It would seem to me that if this is true, most of us do not know the Holy Spirit that well, which means we don't know Jesus that well.

I also think the Spirit will guide us when we need certain specific direction but much of our direction is already available to us in the scriptures. If I don't daily keep myself open to hear the Spirit, should He need to give me specific guiidance, then I can confuse my own thoughts with the voice of the Spirit. To me, Spirit fellowship is a relationship where the Holy Spirit is not grieved with our deliberate disobedience and/or quenched by our disregard for His voice.

My guess is that few of us really know the voice of the Spirit as clear as is possible mainly because we put too much faith in our own understandings.
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lesterb
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by lesterb »

I have had times when it seemed that God gave very specific direction. Several times in my life, I have needed to embark on a new course and make a definite career change because the old one came to an abrupt end. Every time that this has happened to me, I have clearly received and open door that felt right.

That has happened to me again, and God really hasn't opened any doors. I have a few things tossing around in the dryer, as it were, but none seems to fit the description of an open door. I could probably force several of these doors open, but I'm uneasy about that.

On the other hand, maybe I'm just rushing things. It's been seven months now that I was laid off, and God has provided for our needs in interesting ways, through various odds and ends. One of those may turn into a good job. At this point, it appears like it might, but it's probably at least half a year away. Which is enough time to finish my Ecclesiastes book, and get well into another one.

Now, on a different slant...
I'd like to think that the Spirit speaks clearly, like Sudsy said. But various times over the years, I've been bothered by situations that I found difficult to sort out. It was hard to know which side the Spirit was taking and which side was being defended by self or my own desires.

I edited a book on the Holy Spirit for Rod and Staff one time. The author was a very interesting writer, who was also a friend of mine. The chapter in that book that spoke to me the clearest was one entitled something like, "Where is God When the Spirit is Silent." That may not be an exact quote. Interestingly, that was the one chapter that the review committee made me cut out. Neither of the other committee members had my type of personality, and life was more or less clear cut, and black and white for them. It hasn't been that way for me, and I think this probably relates to my personality.

So does God speak to some personalities differently from others? I can see from Ernie's post above (and from my prior knowledge of him) that he, as well as Wayne, would have responded like that review committee. Does that make them better Christians that people like me? Or just different Christians?

I'm not degrading anyone with this post. But this has been and continues to be a very real question for me.
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RZehr
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by RZehr »

To say someone or a group of someones is Spirit led or not Spirit led to simplistic. We use these short cut terms in life and they have a place, but sometimes we need to stop and explain what is meant.
Think of what is meant by the phrase, "a nice person". We don't mean to imply that the nice person is always nice. Nor are we saying that since someone else might be "nicer" then the first, the first is no longer "a nice person".

In this way, a "Spirit led person", is not always faithful in following the leading by the Spirit. Of course this is not to mean that the Spirit is off duty, but rather we fail at times to hear, or listen. The Spirits leading is constant, but our following is not. Some people will do a better job at following the Spirits direction in their life.
A Spirit led person should be understood as someone who cares about, who listens, who seeks the Holy Spirits direction. He is a Spiritual person. And when this Spirit led person fails, or makes a wrong decision, I don't think his "Spirit led" card needs to be immediately revoked, and he is now a wicked person.

I believe there are times, decisions, and subjects one which the Holy Spirit is silent on the minor things.
For example - Sometimes I, as a father, tell my children to go clean their room. That is the whole of the instruction. Now for them to go up to their room and debate and argue and waste time trying to discern whether I would rather have them put the green legos or the blue legos away first, would be silly. I simply don't care what they do first, I just want it done. I don't care if they vacuum the floor diagonally, or which side of the room they begin. I will find pleasure in their willing, cheerful effort.
I believe there are times that God gives us general instructions and just leaves the details up to us, and blesses our honest efforts.
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Sudsy
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by Sudsy »

One thing I was taught about hearing from God the Spirit, is to make sure we isolate ourselves in some place (Jesus went into the mountains) to give God quality time with minimal distractions to commune with Him and to spend much more time at listening than speaking. Sometimes it takes quite an effort to concentrate on hearing from God. Jesus was very keen on knowing the Father's will and delighted in doing it once it was made known to Him. Asking God to speak to us (to our inner being, our heart, which involves our mind) and learning to use our spiritual ears over other thoughts rolling through our minds. When a thought occurs in this silence, double check with God to get a sense of assurance that it is the Spirit speaking. Over time, His voice will become clearer and clearer. A sheep does not automatically know the shepherds voice but learns to know it through hearing it often. I think reading the scriptures is also a means God uses to teach us to hear His voice. Does that make sense or should I say bears witness with your spirit, or not ?

I do think also that it is possible that we may go through times when God will not speak. This is a challenge to our faith that He is still listening. Telling God that we will trust Him even when we don't hear Him speak and not becoming anxious may be some growth that God is working out in us. God seems to honour faithfulness when immediate or quick results are not evident.

Whether or not God speaks more black and white to certain personalities more than others, I have no thoughts on this other than I don't see why He would limit Himself to a set way regardless of our frame.

Whoops, I see a new reply has been posted so I'll post anyway and go back and read it.
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RZehr
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by RZehr »

My Grandfather was a cantankerous, cynical man. He took enjoyment and found humor in hearing people say they were "Spirit led" to do something. When hardships and trials happened in their project, or when they back tracked, he would mock them laughing "The Spirit LED him there, then the Spirit LED him back!" He felt that people around here were quick to use "Spirit led" as a trump card to mask their own ambitions and personal desires.
Just an anecdote to remind us how our words, our testimony can be taken by onlookers.
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silentreader
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Re: Spirit Led Christians

Post by silentreader »

In these somewhat parallel passages;
Ephesians 5:18-21English Standard Version (ESV)
18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, 20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Colossians 3:16-17English Standard Version (ESV)
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Paul uses two different terms, can we learn anything from that?
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