Two Kingdoms Theology

General Christian Theology
Ernie
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Two Kingdoms Theology

Post by Ernie »

This is a thread to explore different definitions and out-workings of Two Kingdom theology.

Please be factual and site sources when possible. Please keep speculation and personal opinions to a minimum.
Last edited by Ernie on Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ernie
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Re: Two Kingdoms Theology

Post by Ernie »

I was not aware that the term "Two Kingdoms" has its origin with Luther and that in spite of Luther's stated beliefs in this regard, his application was quite different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_kingdoms_doctrine
Last edited by Ernie on Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ernie
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Re: Two Kingdoms / Two Gospels Theology

Post by Ernie »

I think this Two Gospels presentation gets at the heart of the matter very well.

http://www.homesteadheritage.com/videos/two-gospels/
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Re: Two Kingdoms Theology

Post by Bootstrap »

Ernie wrote:I was not aware that the term "Two Kingdoms" has its origin with Luther and that in spite of Luther's stated beliefs in this regard, his application was quite different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_kingdoms_doctrine
I think Mennonites often think we invented the term, but Kingdom of God is a fundamental biblical term, and people have always wrestled with the relationship between the Kingdom of God and earthly kingdoms. Plain Mennonites tend to think of Two Kingdom Theology along the lines of Michael Sattler. Non-plain Mennonites tend to think of Two Kingdom Theology along the lines of Pilgram Marpeck. Luther's understanding is actually quite similar to Hubmaier's, if I recall. Long before Luther, Augustine wrote of the Two Cities in The City of God. I think each of these is worth exploring.
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MaxPC
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Re: Two Kingdoms Theology

Post by MaxPC »

Great thread, Ernie!

Our interpretation of Two Kingdoms comes from Rev. Vincent McNabb, OP in the book The Church and the Land. You can find the relevant quotes along with the Scriptures that inspired them at this link.

The Scripture that sums up best our POV is in Luke and John:
[bible]Luke 16, 13-15[/bible]
[bible]John 17, 14-16[/bible]
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Re: Two Kingdoms Theology

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:Great thread, Ernie!

Our interpretation of Two Kingdoms comes from Rev. Vincent McNabb, OP in the book The Church and the Land. You can find the relevant quotes along with the Scriptures that inspired them at this link.
What did he say? I have looked at that site in some depth, I must have missed the part that discusses this question. The site says you fully follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, so I assume that implies you follow the Catechism's teaching on The duties of citizens? Or do you dissent from that teaching and follow a different one? If so, what is that teaching?
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Wade
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Re: Two Kingdoms Theology

Post by Wade »

1 Timothy 2:1-2 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1 John 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
Romans 13:1+4 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God... for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain.
Matthew 26:52-53 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?
John 18:36+37 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”
Acts 5:29b ...We ought to obey God rather than men.
Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
John 17:13-19 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.
John 15:19b ...but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world...
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,
“I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
Therefore go out from their midst,
and be separate from them, says the Lord,
and touch no unclean thing;
then I will welcome you,
and I will be a father to you,
and you shall be sons and daughters to me,
says the Lord Almighty.”
Philippians 3:20a ...our citizenship is in heaven...
Hebrews 11:13b-16 ...and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
1 Peter 2:9-11a ...you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles...
Romans 12:1b-2 ...by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
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MaxPC
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Re: Two Kingdoms Theology

Post by MaxPC »

Wade, here's an interesting study that ties in with some of your thoughts. I found it while exploring the Biblical view of "swimming upstream".
Link
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Re: Two Kingdoms Theology

Post by Neto »

Wade wrote:
John 18:36+37 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”
Thanks Wade. This is the one that was the turning point for me. Actually, I have generally expressed myself in terms of my ability to only be a part of a single Kingdom, so would talk about Single Kingdom belief. I do understand how it is meant, but the term "two kingdom" just sounds too much like the idea that we are members in both, and have responsibilities & functions in both, at the same time; that we can carry out the functions of the earthly kingdom (such as killing in time of war, or as a policeman, security guard, or even an executioner) as a representative of that kingdom, w/o our actions reflecting on our reputation as members of the Kingdom of God in any way.
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Re: Two Kingdoms Theology

Post by Bootstrap »

Neto wrote:
Wade wrote:
John 18:36+37 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”
Thanks Wade. This is the one that was the turning point for me. Actually, I have generally expressed myself in terms of my ability to only be a part of a single Kingdom, so would talk about Single Kingdom belief. I do understand how it is meant, but the term "two kingdom" just sounds too much like the idea that we are members in both, and have responsibilities & functions in both, at the same time; that we can carry out the functions of the earthly kingdom (such as killing in time of war, or as a policeman, security guard, or even an executioner) as a representative of that kingdom, w/o our actions reflecting on our reputation as members of the Kingdom of God in any way.
The New Testament clearly says that there are two kingdoms, but it doesn't directly answer all the questions about the relationship between them. That's why there is more than one two kingdom theology. Without some two kingdom theology, it's really hard to figure out how to obey the entire New Testament. If we obey earthly governments, do we go to war or not? If we go to war, how do we square that with the Sermon on the Mount? How does all of this relate to passages in the Revelation?

Luther's Two Kingdoms built on the analogy of the Two Cities in Augustine's City of God. To save time, I'll use a summary from a Wikipedia article:
The book presents human history as a conflict between what Augustine calls the Earthly City (often colloquially referred to as the City of Man) and the City of God, a conflict that is destined to end in victory for the latter. The City of God is marked by people who forgot earthly pleasure to dedicate themselves to the eternal truths of God, now revealed fully in the Christian faith. The Earthly City, on the other hand, consists of people who have immersed themselves in the cares and pleasures of the present, passing world.

Augustine’s thesis depicts the history of the world as universal warfare between God and the Devil. This metaphysical war is not limited by time but only by geography on Earth. In this war, God moves (by divine intervention/ Providence) those governments, political /ideological movements and military forces aligned (or aligned the most) with the Catholic Church (the City of God) in order to oppose by all means—including military—those governments, political/ideological movements and military forces aligned (or aligned the most) with the Devil (the City of Devil).
Augustine's theology became the theological justification for the Holy Roman Empire under Constantine, which allied the church with secular government and military power, presumably against those governments allied with the devil.

Luther basically agreed with this, but also wanted to tell the government to stay out of theology. Christians should be subservient in outward matters - including military service - and leave questions of the soul up to the church:
God has ordained the two governments: the spiritual, which by the Holy Spirit under Christ makes Christians and pious people; and the secular, which restrains the unchristian and wicked so that they are obliged to keep the peace outwardly… The laws of worldly government extend no farther than to life and property and what is external upon earth. For over the soul God can and will let no one rule but himself. Therefore, where temporal power presumes to prescribe laws for the soul, it encroaches upon God's government and only misleads and destroys souls. We desire to make this so clear that every one shall grasp it, and that the princes and bishops may see what fools they are when they seek to coerce the people with their laws and commandments into believing one thing or another.
!!! SNIP !!!
We are to be subject to governmental power and do what it bids, as long as it does not bind our conscience but legislates only concerning outward matters… But if it invades the spiritual domain and constrains the conscience, over which God only must preside and rule, we should not obey it at all but rather lose our necks. Temporal authority and government extend no further than to matters which are external and corporeal.
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