Swimming Upstream

General Christian Theology
temporal1
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Re: Swimming Upstream

Post by temporal1 »

Neto wrote:Please clue me in - in what thread (date & page, too, if it's a long one) did RZer's referenced comment appear?

(If I am guessing correctly as to how it was meant, I have also heard the symbolism used of pulling a sled back up a snowy slope. If it is an entire congregation, then you'll always have some who hang onto the sled, won't let go, but just drag along, fighting the upward motion at every turn. If it is an individual, you will have people grabbing your sled, to tell you that "It's more fun going down.")

(Oh, and Boot, I appreciate your presence here, as I do the others. I have respect for anyone who has the courage to move with the Holy Spirit against the flow of the culture or the world. Using the swimming analogy, not every stream's headwaters ends up in a 'Plain Mennonite' congregation.)
in my post that was removed, i included the link, and RZehr's post with the original reference to "swimming upstream." btw, a simple search of "upstream" will take you right there.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=148&p=3937&hilit=upstream#p3937

when RZehr posted there were no complaints, but some interesting posts followed.
this morning's drama was unexpected and unappreciated (by me.)

if anyone wants more from me on this, a PM would work fine.
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temporal1
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Re: Swimming Upstream

Post by temporal1 »

Neto wrote:.. I have respect for anyone who has the courage to move with the Holy Spirit against the flow of the culture or the world.

Using the swimming analogy, not every stream's headwaters ends up in a 'Plain Mennonite' congregation.)
yes.
RZehr was speaking specifically to Mennonites, as was appropriate to that thread (link above) .. but, his words have a universal appeal for all Christians to "dig deeper" into their own beliefs+ actions, for introspection about, "where am i in this?!" :)

isn't it interesting how just a couple of well-placed words can prompt thought?
Jesus came for this purpose, to provoke thoughtfulness, and personal accountability.
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lesterb
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Re: Swimming Upstream

Post by lesterb »

I get the picture in the first part of Ecclesiastes that we are rowing for dear life to go upstream, but all we can do is slow down our drift, since the current is inexorable. Of course, in the end we will go over a big falls and be bashed to pieces on the rocks.

Since this can't be avoided, we might as well save ourselves the effort and just go with the flow. It's too bad we know about the falls. We could enjoy the trip more if we didn't....

That does seem to be the subconscious thought processes of a lot of people.

Lest I be mistaken, I believe that God does honor our efforts to buck the tide. We may not accomplish everything we would like to, but that is still better than just throwing in the towel.
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Neto
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Re: Swimming Upstream

Post by Neto »

lesterb wrote:.... Lest I be mistaken, I believe that God does honor our efforts to buck the tide. ....
HE will get in the boat with us, and take an oar. Watch out.
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Peregrino
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Re: Swimming Upstream

Post by Peregrino »

In The Russians' Secret, Peter Hoover talks about the Doukhobor "Spirit Warriors" of Russia who had an old legend about the plakun trava, the weed that floats upstream. Considering their testimony, I think they exemplified some of the spirit that Rzehr was talking about.
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Re: Swimming Upstream

Post by Peregrino »

The more I think about this analogy of the weed floating upstream, the more I like it.

I visualize a light weed like a tumbleweed floating lightly on the surface of the water. The current has little effect on it because most of it is in the wind which is blowing opposite of the current. A log or a dead fish float downstream and the blowing wind has no effect on them.

I want to float lightly on the surface of life, lightly enough that the wind of the Spirit can blow me in His direction. But the more I sink into the "current", the less I will feel the wind and I will be inexorably dragged downstream.

How light am I? What is moving me? Which direction am I being moved?
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ohio jones
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Re: Swimming Upstream

Post by ohio jones »

I like the picture of the week floating upstream, driven by the wind of the Spirit. But we need to be sure it really is the Spirit that propels us, that we are not being "carried about by every wind of doctrine" (Eph. 4:14).

Perspective has a lot to do with this as well. I was reading a recent blog post (some of you may know the author from MD) that took conservative Mennonites to task for a list of things he considers prideful and divisive. Maybe this is not an accurate perception, I'd like to give him the benefit of doubt, but it looks like he considers conservative Mennonites to be the ones who are carried downstream by the current, while he is trying to swim away from them in what he thinks is an upstream direction.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Swimming Upstream

Post by Bootstrap »

This thread has been "swimming upstream" since it started, and that's great.

I definitely agree that we need to be looking to Jesus and returning to the source. The water is purest at its source. If we keep returning to that source, I think there is room for people who vote and people who do not, an issue that Jesus did not directly address. 9 minutes before starting this thread, Max used this same phrase in another thread to imply that a true Christian cannot vote. I asked him how he relates to this in his own church, which teaches that voting is an obligation for Christians:
2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country
So I asked Max this:
I'm not asking this as an attack, but this thread is very much about how each of us approaches these things. If voting is incompatible with your faith, how do you approach this in your church?
In many of these threads, I am are wrestling with different issues, asking what the right approach is for Christians, and how to relate to that in my faith community. I see others do the same. I think MN needs to be a safe place to do that. In a thread that is doing that, I think it is helpful if people share from their own perspective, and talk about how they handle these things in their own faith community. Or if someone is not in a church, I think it's helpful if they share how they handle it in that situation.

When RZehr introduced the phrase to us, he used it to mean moving from an MC-USA tradition to a more conservative Mennonite tradition, saying this:
I see intermediate conservative mennonites somewhat freely interact and connect with charity people, german baptists, followers of the way, ultra conservative mennonites, moderate conservative mennonites. Depending on the person not all intermediates will interact with all these groups, but I do. I consider the differences between these groups and myself mostly superficial.
If I was in an area with only one of these churches I feel like I could, with a little effort, make myself at home. I would chose any of these over a MCUSA church.
And I think that we see the same going the other way. I forget which church you are a part of now, but it appears to me that you are more comfortable crossing from MCUSA? to where you are now attending, instead of swimming upstream to a conservative Mennonite church.
MCUSA, in my opinion, has much more in common with evangelical churches than with conservative anabaptist churches. I feel like literally the only thing we have in common is the name Mennonite.
I responded to RZehr here and here. Temp remembered RZehr's post and quoted it with some comments, someone (presumably a moderator) deleted her post.

I agree with the people in this thread who say we should swim upstream to the real source, to Jesus and to Scripture. Some of us will do this in a plain Mennonite tradition, others will not.

I think this has ramifications for how people like me, Max, and Temp relate to each other. None of us is plain Mennonite, none of us is in the process of becoming plain Mennonite, each of us is practicing our faith in ways that plain Mennonites would not. They have grace for us here. They can discuss these differences thoughtfully. We should be able to do the same.

And if we can't, we can hardly claim to be swimming upstream.
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MaxPC
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Re: Swimming Upstream

Post by MaxPC »

Peregrino wrote:The more I think about this analogy of the weed floating upstream, the more I like it.

I visualize a light weed like a tumbleweed floating lightly on the surface of the water. The current has little effect on it because most of it is in the wind which is blowing opposite of the current. A log or a dead fish float downstream and the blowing wind has no effect on them.

I want to float lightly on the surface of life, lightly enough that the wind of the Spirit can blow me in His direction. But the more I sink into the "current", the less I will feel the wind and I will be inexorably dragged downstream.

How light am I? What is moving me? Which direction am I being moved?
The bolded really speaks to me. Having been dragged down by cultural baggage and secular pressures when I was a very young man, by the grace of God I was able to see the better way. Thanks be to God.

Letting go of those attitudes and things that drag us down makes our focus on God much easier.
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temporal1
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Re: Swimming Upstream

Post by temporal1 »

ohio jones wrote:I like the picture of the week floating upstream, driven by the wind of the Spirit.
But we need to be sure it really is the Spirit that propels us, that we are not being "carried about by every wind of doctrine" (Eph. 4:14).

Perspective has a lot to do with this as well.
I was reading a recent blog post (some of you may know the author from MD) that took conservative Mennonites to task for a list of things he considers prideful and divisive.

Maybe this is not an accurate perception, I'd like to give him the benefit of doubt, but it looks like he considers conservative Mennonites to be the ones who are carried downstream by the current, while he is trying to swim away from them in what he thinks is an upstream direction.
interesting. i have no idea whose blog you read.
one of the problems of the internet is, once words are shared, there isn't always much allowance for growth and change.

i would probably read these words as from someone who is seeking, may have some legitimate questions, but, who is not "there" in his/her journey. i have shared before, i'm so thankful the internet was NOT available in former times. young people need time to seek+stretch, to be wrong, to be pathetic, it's part of the maturing process. i'm so glad not to have had the temptation to share "all that" on cyberspace. it's so confining. while promising freedom, it robs personal freedom. it can become a self-made prison. imho, young people deserve better.

(my presumption is the blog is from a younger one, that may not be the case, some of us oldies have found the internet. and, not all us oldies are full of Light. tests come at all ages)

one thing:
if we have it wrong when we believe we're swimming upstream - it will not last. we will be corrected.
when-where-how, is up to the Holy Spirit. we are all subject to the Holy Spirit.
in the meantime, we experience a lot of pain, cause others' pain, it can take time (we are nothing if not impatient!)

questions-wrestling can be tough, but they are ok. God is waiting for when we tire and seek Him in humility.

2 Peter 3:9
Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice:
With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
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