Ongoing Moral Law?

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Heirbyadoption
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Ongoing Moral Law?

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Question for anybody, and the simpler/clearer the answers would be appreciated if/where possible (I know it's tough, lol).

I've run into the premise a couple times lately which differentiates between the moral and the ceremonial law in the Old Testament, and which suggests that the Church is still obligated to abide by the moral law and its precepts (even beyond the 10 commandments). Do you find this Scripturally supportable, or Scripturally unsupportable, and could you point me there?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Ongoing Moral Law?

Post by Bootstrap »

Fools step in where angels fear to tread.

So here's this fool's contribution. I think this article has it about right. Here's a quote, but I suggest you read the entire article, it is moderately short and easy to follow.
But a great deal of confusion exists over the issues of law and grace and the place of the Mosaic law in the New Testament believer’s life. However, the basic principle is that the “fusion” of law and grace brings a “confusion” which results in sterile legalism. Because of man’s natural bent toward either legalism or license, the place and function of the Law has been an issue in the Christian community since the very early days of the church. There have always been those who have sought to put the Christian back under the Law or make the Law necessary for both salvation and sanctification. As a result large sections of the New Testament are written directly to this issue (see Acts 15 and the council at Jerusalem; Romans 5:10; 6:14; 7:1f; 2 Cor. 3:6-18; and the entire book of Galatians). These passages were written against a legalistic use of the Law, one which promotes works to gain points with either God or people; works of self-effort rather than a life lived by the power and personal leading of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, other parts of the New Testament are written against license and the misuse of liberty (Gal. 5:13ff. Rom. 6:1ff; 8:4ff; Tit. 2:11-14). But the answer is never to put the Christian back under the Law, but rather a proper understanding and appreciation of God’s grace to us in Christ. Christian liberty is not the right to do as one pleases, but the power, desire, and will to do as one ought in and by the power of God and a regenerated life.

This is ultimately the focus of Titus 2:11-14. The glorious manifestation of God’s grace in Christ instructs and trains believers in how to live.3 This grace provides the incentive, the motive, and the means. Regarding Titus 2:11-14 Ryrie writes:

The verb teaching encompasses the whole concept of growth—discipline, maturing, obedience, progress, and the like. This involves denial of improper things and direction into proper channels. These five terms—godliness, worldly lusts, soberly, righteously, godly—do not describe the content of grace teaching so much as they indicate the object and purposeful goal of that teaching. And this intent is, according to this passage, the ultimate purpose of the Incarnation of Christ. He came to display the grace of God in the changed lives of his people. The final cause of the revelation of the grace of God in Christ is not creed but character.
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temporal1
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Re: Ongoing Moral Law?

Post by temporal1 »

i appreciate george's post (see arrows below) - Page 8:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=232&start=70
gcdonner wrote:It seems that MOST of you have missed my point altogether, and I take responsibility for that in not communicating more clearly.

:arrow: My point is, that even under the NT, sin is defined by violation of the law of God, ie, the 10 Commandments. We are NOT bound by the law, but still will pay the penalties of it if/when we violate it, except as John puts it:
1Jn 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 
2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 
3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 
4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 
5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 
6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
 

:arrow: I encourage you to continue reading this passage.
The 10 commandments are the definition of sin, even as Paul tells us:
Rom 7:7  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 
And it directs us to Christ himself:
Gal 3:24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
For those of you who are troubled by the Sabbath, you forget or overlook it's purpose, which Jesus stated as being a gift, a blessing for us as men.
Mar_2:27  ...The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath...
It is a scientifically proven fact that the body needs one day in 7 to rest and recuperate properly. If you look on a sabbath day (notice I said, "a sabbath day") as something that hinders or binds you, then you have missed the intended blessing. The term "sabbath" means "rest". If you forsake it, it is to your own detriment. Do you HAVE to? No, but you will miss the blessing and pay the price for not receiving your rest. It is also a reminder/symbol of our ceasing from our own works for salvation and accepting God's gracious gift that is not of works. Please do remember, however, that we are created in Christ Jesus "unto good works".

I fear that the traditions of men are robbing many of you of your adherence to scripture and the blessings of God found therein. As Anabaptists who often are strong on man made traditions and laws, you are trading away God's blessing found in his word and set forth in the 10 commandments, which are not there to hurt but to help and provide a blessing.

:arrow: When we get to heaven, God's laws will be adhered to without exception, because we will have perfect obedience without the lusts of the flesh that distract us here on earth.

I commend you all to HIS grace.
George
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lesterb
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Re: Ongoing Moral Law?

Post by lesterb »

Heirbyadoption wrote:Question for anybody, and the simpler/clearer the answers would be appreciated if/where possible (I know it's tough, lol).

I've run into the premise a couple times lately which differentiates between the moral and the ceremonial law in the Old Testament, and which suggests that the Church is still obligated to abide by the moral law and its precepts (even beyond the 10 commandments). Do you find this Scripturally supportable, or Scripturally unsupportable, and could you point me there?
Here's how I view it, in short.

The civil part of the law was for the nation of Israel, for keeping law and order.

The ceremonial part of the law was God's way of providing for sinful people before Christ.

The moral law was a revelation of God's view of morality. I don't think its a matter of "keeping" the law or not. But God has always hated sexual sins, for instance. So He gave some illustrations of this in the moral law. Jesus expanded on this in the sermon on the mount, raising the bar from sinning physically to sinning in our hearts and mind. He dealt with "thou shalt not kill" similarly. God is not longer satisfied that I avoid beating up my neighbor or killing him -- now he tells me to love him and heap coals of fire on his head.

Anyone living under the New Covenant by the power of Christ is already trying to live according to God's moral expectations and should certainly be living above the OT moral law. But I think principles like the passage Valerie brought up still are true. Why is the Ukraine no longer the breadbasket of Europe? Has God cursed the earth because of the extreme bloodshed under communism? I think the blight of sin, especially the shedding of innocent blood, is really setting the world up for judgment.
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Re: Ongoing Moral Law?

Post by MaxPC »

Heirbyadoption wrote:Question for anybody, and the simpler/clearer the answers would be appreciated if/where possible (I know it's tough, lol).

I've run into the premise a couple times lately which differentiates between the moral and the ceremonial law in the Old Testament, and which suggests that the Church is still obligated to abide by the moral law and its precepts (even beyond the 10 commandments). Do you find this Scripturally supportable, or Scripturally unsupportable, and could you point me there?
I think of the moral law in terms of the formation of the inner man and his heart attitudes.

I view ceremonial law as outward practices and devotions.

Yes, it is supported in Scripture. Off the top of my head, Matthew 19 is full of Jesus' teachings on morality (moral law) and the formation of the heart of the disciple.

Regarding devotional and ceremonial practices (aka outward practices such as fasting, etc), in Matthew 9 Jesus speaks of new wine in new wine skins re outward practices.

In your position, I would read those two chapters in Matthew and then look at your questions again to see if those readings are useful for your study.
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Neto
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Re: Ongoing Moral Law?

Post by Neto »

My understanding of this:
No one ever gained salvation by obedience to the Law, whether there are two sections of the Law or not. The Law was given as a covenant of love, and only those who responded in faith were saved, and by God's grace, not by their conformity to the Law. Were they 'obligated' to obey the Law? Yes, but they did not gain salvation through obedience to the codes of the Law, but by faith in God. (Just as we are not saved, or kept saved, by our obedience to any code of conduct. Only by God's grace through belief in Jesus, the Christ of God.)
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Wade
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Re: Ongoing Moral Law?

Post by Wade »

Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Ongoing Moral Law?

Post by Heirbyadoption »

I was going to wait for a few more, but without proper controversy, MN doesn't perc quite as fast as MD did, it seems. Maybe I should explain the context/situation facing our congregation currently, and then my question may make more sense. I'll go out on a limb here. Not trying to start any arguments, but maybe there's a perspective we haven't considered somewhere along the way.

In our congregation, we have an older brother whose wife left and divorced him several years ago. He has remained faithful to his vow, staying celibate and continuing active within the local church. She remarried another man, and it turned out he was abusive. As such, she only lived with him a couple days, and had their marriage annulled within a month (point being there was a second marriage). Eventually she repented of her sin, and returned to her husband for restitution and restoration. He accepted her repentance and forgave her, and after some time and counseling, has since legally remarried her and took her back as his original wife, presumably in the full sense of the word. He continues as an active member - she attends with him some, but still is associated with a progressive ex-Mennonite church at this point.

We have a small minority objection to the reunification of the original marriage, to the point they refused to commune with the rest of us, and who thus far refuse to submit to the majority of the congregation who feel this brother and his wife are on solid Biblical ground to reunite with each other as original marriage partners before God. There are a couple different objections given, but the reason behind this post is the insistence that under the moral law (not the ceremonial), God forbade a man from taking an adulterous wife back to himself, she being defiled. Coupled with the idea that by remarrying one another, he is entering a second union and she is entering a third, regardless of the originality of the partners, and therefore it is adulterous in the view of our minority.

There are several other Scriptural areas that have led us to feel they can reunite in good conscience, but this idea has been offered that the moral law, with all its instructions, remains binding (beyond principle, sorry Max) upon the Church today, not just the Jews under the Old Covenant, and therefore our brother cannot reunite with his original wife. (as a note of interest, this would also technically forbid them from just marrying one another if they had simply divorced but neither had remarried...).

On the other hand, most of our congregation stands by the rest of the Scriptures on the subject as well, including Romans 7:2-3 and 1 Cor. 7:39, understanding that both Jesus and God clarified that divorce was a man made device and that the original marriage does not end in the eyes of God, no matter what legal separation or adultery comes between the original partners.

So, all comments welcome, but try to keep it reasonably short and concise, please, even if you have a different understanding of the Scriptures. In your understanding, do the tenets of the moral law given in the Old Testament remain in force upon the Church and prevent the full marital reunification of the original partners, and if so, please elaborate.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Ongoing Moral Law?

Post by Bootstrap »

I really think this is a situation for prayerful discernment.

Clearly, Deuteronomy 24 would not have allowed her to return. I don't think that is binding, it is Old Testament law. The New Testament doesn't talk about defilement in the same way that the Old Testament did, Christianity is not about ceremonial cleanness. And I really think that discernment is needed in most situations like this. Beyond that ... sometimes legalistic parsing can get you pretty confused and far from the weightier matters of the law, justice, mercy, and faith. To me, at least, justice and mercy are on the side of restoring the marriage.

Everyone in the situation has almost certainly been profoundly hurt, and needs healing. You say that he has had counseling and help with this, has she? Any way to harness all this debating energy into compassion and prayer energy? Apparently, he can forgive her and welcome her back, are there people in the congregation who cannot?

In a small church with close relationships, the congregation has also been hurt, and also needs healing.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Ongoing Moral Law?

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Bootstrap wrote:I really think this is a situation for prayerful discernment.

Clearly, Deuteronomy 24 would not have allowed her to return. I don't think that is binding, it is Old Testament law. The New Testament doesn't talk about defilement in the same way that the Old Testament did, Christianity is not about ceremonial cleanness. And I really think that discernment is needed in most situations like this. Beyond that ... sometimes legalistic parsing can get you pretty confused and far from the weightier matters of the law, justice, mercy, and faith. To me, at least, justice and mercy are on the side of restoring the marriage.

Everyone in the situation has almost certainly been profoundly hurt, and needs healing. You say that he has had counseling and help with this, has she? Any way to harness all this debating energy into compassion and prayer energy?
Prayerful discernment indeed. To answer a couple questions, they have both been through counseling and are doing so together, as I understand it. And seem to be doing well with each other. As for the debating, most of that has pretty much come to an impasse for a bit. A couple of the strongest objectors are actually those who were good friends with the wife before she took off, so some of it is personal hurt and reaction, etc, though it's all being pushed strictly as a Biblical issue. Makes yet another aspect to pray for. :pray

After it came to a head last summer, we all agreed to call for some outside brethren to council us this past fall, who came and they recommended we take it to our annual conference this summer and lay it in the hands of a group of elders from congregations across the country to study it for a year and come back with a recommendation for us next year. Our next council is in about a month to decide whether to follow that council. Our only other real option at this point is to require submission from the minority, which they're unwilling to give, so rather than deal with their unsubmission, we are continuing to pray, study, and seek for any further discernment God may send, and I expect the question/issue will get sent to conference as mentioned above. Wouldn't be my mind to go that route, but I'm one of the youngest members, and we keep hoping God will soften a few more hearts.

But this idea that the practical tenets of the moral law continue in force upon the Church (beyond those re-iterated in the New Testament) was not an aspect I'd much encountered, hence my questions.
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