Is this still true? Leviticus 18

[Valerie]

Neil & I are reading through the Old Covenant again- (plus new) and we were reading Leviticus 18 this morning-
Would it still be true, that because of sexual immorality in a 'land'- that God would then see that nation as 'defiled' and vex it? I don't see how the New Covenant would change how He would view this- thoughts? (I have to head for work so can't check back until tonight)
Leviticus 18:
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God.

3After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

4Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.

5Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord.

6None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the Lord.

7The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

8The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

9The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

10The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.

11The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

12Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.

13Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.

14Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.

15Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

16Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.

17Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.

18Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.

19Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.

20Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

21And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.

22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

23Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

24Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:

25And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

26Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

27(For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)

28That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

29For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

30Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God.

[Robert]

These were given to the Israelites. Acts 15 speaks to what is needed for gentiles.

[RZehr]

I'm sure God does still feel the same today. But I'm hesitant to suggest that this country was ever a paragon of virtue.

[Valerie]

These were given to the Israelites. Acts 15 speaks to what is needed for gentiles.

Me thinks you missed my question Robert
When you read the passage, it speaks of the sins of other nations (that are abominations) and how the defiled the land, and how God then 'vexed' the land where these were committed.

Really that was my question- Israel aside (I realize the laws He was giving Israel) but- my question is, if a 'land' endorses those kinds of defilements/abominations as He was pointing out causing them to be 'vexed'- would God change about that?
Would He still, when a land is known for those defilements/abominations, "vex" them?
If not, why not?
If so, why so?
We were talking about it when reading it- to us it doesn't seem God would change about how He deals with lands that are defiled in that way. That is what I was wondering-

[Valerie]

I'm sure God does still feel the same today. But I'm hesitant to suggest that this country was ever a paragon of virtue.

If that is true, then have we always been 'vexed' like nations that were known for defilements/abominations?
We may not ever have been a paragon of virtue- neither was Israel- however- the particular sins listed in Leviticus 18 that God said were an abomination- and defiled the land- were not even legal in our land before and now they are not only legal but they are exalted, encouraged, defended-

I'm wondering- because whether Anabaptists think so or not, the world around us considered us a Judeo Christian nation-even to the point of welcoming persecuted Anabaptists for safety-

[lesterb]

I believe God's moral position hasn't changed on these things.

Some people would say that the civil war was God's punishment for slavery, etc. Judgment isn't always immediate. North America will be judged for all the innocent blood shed by it's people -- through abortion, etc. Other nations have faced it too. If there is enough salt in the land, and people who are praying, God may hold off that more people can repent and come to him. But when the cup of iniquity is full, judgment will fall.

[RZehr]

I'm sure God does still feel the same today. But I'm hesitant to suggest that this country was ever a paragon of virtue.

If that is true, then have we always been 'vexed' like nations that were known for defilements/abominations?
We may not ever have been a paragon of virtue- neither was Israel- however- the particular sins listed in Leviticus 18 that God said were an abomination- and defiled the land- were not even legal in our land before and now they are not only legal but they are exalted, encouraged, defended-

I'm wondering- because whether Anabaptists think so or not, the world around us considered us a Judeo Christian nation-even to the point of welcoming persecuted Anabaptists for safety-

Its a good question and an interesting speculation, but it is simply that; a speculation. I don't think the Bible is really clear (at least to me) on this.
My speculation is that the law of sowing and reaping, which applies to all mankind, might come into play here more so than Leviticus. But I may very well be wrong.
I don't see God as a God that punishes and rewards nation states quite the same today as He did in the OT. He now judges us individually. However, the law of sowing and reaping, may apply to this country simply because there are basic principles that He has given for us to live by, and when we disregard them, we reap the consequences. Kinda like if I stupidly choose to jump off a cliff, I will be harmed. Not necessarily because God is punishing or vexing me, but simply because I violated a very basic law of nature.

[Valerie]

I believe God's moral position hasn't changed on these things.

Some people would say that the civil war was God's punishment for slavery, etc. Judgment isn't always immediate. North America will be judged for all the innocent blood shed by it's people -- through abortion, etc. Other nations have faced it too. If there is enough salt in the land, and people who are praying, God may hold off that more people can repent and come to him. But when the cup of iniquity is full, judgment will fall.

I agree with this- the 'sexual immorality' specifically mentioned in Leviticus 18 too- that it defiled the land. I know we couldn't help but wonder when these types of sins are not only legalized, and marriages which are between two people of the same sex- I think that since God created marriage, and it is a picture of Christ and the Church, and we make a mockery of it- I think this is why many people were feeling like judgement may be coming to America because honestly- even as I read the New Testament, God still seems to see us as nations-and our 'nation' legalized abortion and gay marriage. I agree that praying people and His own timing and sovereignty and providence (not to mention His longsuffering) is holding off judgment perhaps.
Thinking about how He still uses the term 'nations' even throughout Revelations-

[Valerie]

I'm sure God does still feel the same today. But I'm hesitant to suggest that this country was ever a paragon of virtue.

If that is true, then have we always been 'vexed' like nations that were known for defilements/abominations?
We may not ever have been a paragon of virtue- neither was Israel- however- the particular sins listed in Leviticus 18 that God said were an abomination- and defiled the land- were not even legal in our land before and now they are not only legal but they are exalted, encouraged, defended-

I'm wondering- because whether Anabaptists think so or not, the world around us considered us a Judeo Christian nation-even to the point of welcoming persecuted Anabaptists for safety-

Its a good question and an interesting speculation, but it is simply that; a speculation. I don't think the Bible is really clear (at least to me) on this.
My speculation is that the law of sowing and reaping, which applies to all mankind, might come into play here more so than Leviticus. But I may very well be wrong.
I don't see God as a God that punishes and rewards nation states quite the same today as He did in the OT. He now judges us individually. However, the law of sowing and reaping, may apply to this country simply because there are basic principles that He has given for us to live by, and when we disregard them, we reap the consequences. Kinda like if I stupidly choose to jump off a cliff, I will be harmed. Not necessarily because God is punishing or vexing me, but simply because I violated a very basic law of nature.

I tend to see God still seeing us as 'nations' (because He speaks of 'nations' even in Revelations- It seems, and I could be wrong- that around the world we were seen as primarily Christian, and blessed- and it seems that reputation has caused many to want to come to this land. NOW, I hear people around the world are highly critical of it due to what they say on the news, we have a much different reputation than in times past.
I guess we will see but probably because I tend to feel God will address by as you say 'sowing and reaping' and making a mockery of His laws, that He will not let them go unchecked- especially if in times past we were considered a Judeo Christian nation (by reputation, that is)

[lesterb]

I think the Bible often means "cultures" where the KJV says "nations". We see that today, with cultures rising against cultures, even when they are part of the same political region.