Is this still true? Leviticus 18

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RZehr
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Re: Is this still true? Leviticus 18

Post by RZehr »

Valerie wrote: I tend to see God still seeing us as 'nations' (because He speaks of 'nations' even in Revelations- It seems, and I could be wrong- that around the world we were seen as primarily Christian, and blessed- and it seems that reputation has caused many to want to come to this land. NOW, I hear people around the world are highly critical of it due to what they say on the news, we have a much different reputation than in times past.
I guess we will see but probably because I tend to feel God will address by as you say 'sowing and reaping' and making a mockery of His laws, that He will not let them go unchecked- especially if in times past we were considered a Judeo Christian nation (by reputation, that is)
Do you think your thoughts on this are effected by your eschatology? I have no idea what you believe.
Also, I'm not following what the importance of Americas prior and current religious reputation and standing in the world, by other nations, has to do with how God views us, and judges us. Any perception of the US following Jesus is not accurate.

However, following (sowing) basic general principles that God has put in place, has been beneficial (reaping).
But I think for the Muslim countries that discourage (sowing) homosexuality there will also be benefits (reaping). This has little to do with a perceived or actual "national" faith system.
Taking care of people is a God given principle. So an atheistic generous Scandinavian country that wants nothing to do with Christ, may be reaping low crime rates, by sowing generosity.

God sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Let not the just claim their rain as Gods stamp of approval as in the OT.
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Robert
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Re: Is this still true? Leviticus 18

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Valerie wrote: Me thinks you missed my question Robert
When you read the passage, it speaks of the sins of other nations (that are abominations) and how the defiled the land, and how God then 'vexed' the land where these were committed.

Really that was my question- Israel aside (I realize the laws He was giving Israel) but- my question is, if a 'land' endorses those kinds of defilements/abominations as He was pointing out causing them to be 'vexed'- would God change about that?
Would He still, when a land is known for those defilements/abominations, "vex" them?
If not, why not?
If so, why so?
We were talking about it when reading it- to us it doesn't seem God would change about how He deals with lands that are defiled in that way. That is what I was wondering-
If we understand grace and Acts 15, I would say no. This was done to keep Israel on the path to bring the Messiah. Now that the Messiah has come, there is a new covenant with humanity, not just the Israelites.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Is this still true? Leviticus 18

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Can't see how this would apply today?
Someone tonight in Bible study was just in shambles about how this nation that was "built on a foundation of Christianity" is in such a wretched state... as if we're spiraling towards losing God's favor or something? (I'll disagree that "we" ever had it)
Am I to be punished/ forsaken because of the nation I reside in? I sure hope not. I don't claim it or participate (any?) in it.

I disagree that God views people in nations. Jesus's life seems so contrary to such a notion. His love, care, and compassion for individual people of all nationalities speaks volumes. Gentile or Jew... what's the difference now?
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Valerie
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Re: Is this still true? Leviticus 18

Post by Valerie »

RZehr wrote:
Valerie wrote: I tend to see God still seeing us as 'nations' (because He speaks of 'nations' even in Revelations- It seems, and I could be wrong- that around the world we were seen as primarily Christian, and blessed- and it seems that reputation has caused many to want to come to this land. NOW, I hear people around the world are highly critical of it due to what they say on the news, we have a much different reputation than in times past.
I guess we will see but probably because I tend to feel God will address by as you say 'sowing and reaping' and making a mockery of His laws, that He will not let them go unchecked- especially if in times past we were considered a Judeo Christian nation (by reputation, that is)
Do you think your thoughts on this are effected by your eschatology? I have no idea what you believe.
Also, I'm not following what the importance of Americas prior and current religious reputation and standing in the world, by other nations, has to do with how God views us, and judges us. Any perception of the US following Jesus is not accurate.

However, following (sowing) basic general principles that God has put in place, has been beneficial (reaping).
But I think for the Muslim countries that discourage (sowing) homosexuality there will also be benefits (reaping). This has little to do with a perceived or actual "national" faith system.
Taking care of people is a God given principle. So an atheistic generous Scandinavian country that wants nothing to do with Christ, may be reaping low crime rates, by sowing generosity.

God sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Let not the just claim their rain as Gods stamp of approval as in the OT.
Even still- and yes I would say that being in Christian denomination that eschatology played a role in (because God is a God of prophesy, old and new testament) it perhaps has affected how I view this. Not only that- but reading statements from around the world, we are not the only ones who view nations by their 'primary' religions- you can bring up just about any country, and find out what their 'primary religion' is. When Christ came, the Apostles were to take Christianity to the pagan/Gentile nations. 2nd Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
However getting back to topic- whether Anabaptists hold this view of not regarding nations- other nations hold the view that America would primarily be a Judeo Christian nation- in fact, that has a great deal to do with why Islam hates America- Radical Islam, hates the Jew, hates the Christians- This is why they are killing Christians, and if their own convert to Christianity, they are to be killed. I have heard many testimonies from former Muslims, who have shared this both on Christian radio and t.v. interviews. Point being, perhaps the Anabaptist don't agree with the nation viewpoint, but we are surrounded by a world who does and so in our early days, America is known for being founded on Christian values-
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Valerie
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Re: Is this still true? Leviticus 18

Post by Valerie »

KingdomBuilder wrote:Can't see how this would apply today?
Someone tonight in Bible study was just in shambles about how this nation that was "built on a foundation of Christianity" is in such a wretched state... as if we're spiraling towards losing God's favor or something? (I'll disagree that "we" ever had it)
Am I to be punished/ forsaken because of the nation I reside in? I sure hope not. I don't claim it or participate (any?) in it.

I disagree that God views people in nations. Jesus's life seems so contrary to such a notion. His love, care, and compassion for individual people of all nationalities speaks volumes. Gentile or Jew... what's the difference now?
I think anyone should be upset about what's happened in America, and why not? God would be. Does He smile on the fact that we legalized abortion and the millions destroyed in the womb? Does He smile on the divorce situation? The women's liberation movement? Hollywood? That gay marriage has become 'nationally' received?

We may be 'judged' individually on judgement day- but until that day, until the final day- the way I'm used to being taught is we still will have 'borders' because you can see that throughout the New Testament. There is neither Jew nor Greek when it comes to salvation being available to ALL- however- even the new testament brings up kings and those who rule over us as God's ministers (government) and until we are on the other side this will be the case- did God 'favor' America?
I'm not sure, did He 'bless it?' perhaps, otherwise why does every suffering nation on earth want to be here? I'm not looking for God's favor- I am grievous how we have made a mockery of things that are important to Him. However I brought up Leviticus 18 because God is the one who pointed out that certain lands were vexed because of their immorality. I guess I have my answers from Anabaptist viewpoint-
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Valerie
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Re: Is this still true? Leviticus 18

Post by Valerie »

lesterb wrote:I think the Bible often means "cultures" where the KJV says "nations". We see that today, with cultures rising against cultures, even when they are part of the same political region.
Thanks Lester- I have never heard this before that you can take substitute culture for nations-

Thinking about this passage which is a prophesy about the coming Messiah:
Isaiah 60:3
“And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

New Testament prophesy:


Revelation 21:
22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

What I am reading here, is about the New Jerusalem- and so substituting 'cultures' for nations- it's hard for me to see that because 'kings' are mentioned here, and we have no kings over cultures?

Revelation 22:
Revelation 22:2King James Version (KJV)

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

When is this prophesy referring to?
Isaiah 60:12 - For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, [those] nations shall be utterly wasted.
Is this culture? or borders- I am having a hard time switching the word nation out for culture-

This prophesy-
Micah 4:3 - And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
When is Micah referring to?

Perhaps it appears I'm trying to as you say- 'prooftext' it is just new to me to not see the world divided in nations (which wa God's doing to begin with) EVEN realizing that when He says there is neither Jew nor Greek- that Scripture doesn't wipe away the fact that we will have nations, my understanding is that it means salvation was made available to all with the coming of our Messiah-
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RZehr
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Re: Is this still true? Leviticus 18

Post by RZehr »

I'll just add this - I don't want to leave the impression that I'm right on this, or that I clearly understand how God views these things regarding vile national laws and culture.
I've stated where I'm at on the subject, but Gods ways are higher than mine. I wouldn't be surprised if God did "vex" as it were nations.
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Valerie
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Re: Is this still true? Leviticus 18

Post by Valerie »

RZehr wrote:I'll just add this - I don't want to leave the impression that I'm right on this, or that I clearly understand how God views these things regarding vile national laws and culture.
I've stated where I'm at on the subject, but Gods ways are higher than mine. I wouldn't be surprised if God did "vex" as it were nations.
Thank you for sharing RZehr, I appreciate your consideration- I realize we are all probably influenced in thinking according to where we have been taught 'in the faith'- me, for decades, in another denomination-
We are just simply reading through the Bible together, and my thoughts considered nations that exalt vile behavior and paganism- and refuse the Lord, and there does seem a certain 'vexing' if you will (not my words, but God's)- and I couldn't help but wonder if our own land, which is embracing vile behavior and mocking God- if a repentance does not happen, if we too will experience a vexing-
Having read everyone's thoughts that shared (and I thank you)- I guess in a way it really is futile to spend much time on it other than I do care what happens to the souls of men, and when vileness is legalized then souls are affected-
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Re: Is this still true? Leviticus 18

Post by Bootstrap »

Valerie wrote:I guess in a way it really is futile to spend much time on it other than I do care what happens to the souls of men, and when vileness is legalized then souls are affected-
I agree. So how do we respond as Christians? How can we be a light in this darkness?
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Re: Is this still true? Leviticus 18

Post by Josh »

God sent his son Jesus so that each of us can walk away from the vileness in our laws, cultures, nations, and countries. We don't have to live any longer by the futile way of our ancestors.
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