Capitalism and the Gospel

General Christian Theology
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Josh
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Re: Capitalism and the Gospel

Post by Josh »

Capitalism means using capital to make even more money. A rich person in a capitalist society can never work, yet have plenty to eat.

Sounds like the opposite of what the Bible says.
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mike
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Re: Capitalism and the Gospel

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ken_sylvania wrote:
mike wrote:The problem with lack of willingness to work is that this unwillingness can be the result of poor or nonexistent training, which isn't the fault of the person. So as a Christian I don't think that we should just disregard these factors when deciding who is "worthy" of assistance.
What exactly are you trying to say? Are you saying that if a person is hungry because they can't hold down a job because they haven't been trained to work, they should receive a different level of assistance than a person in otherwise the same situation except that he was trained to work when he was young but doesn't feel like working now?
This maybe sounds a bit cold-hearted, but at some point, the best motivator, whether a person is trained or untrained, is an empty stomach.
I'm saying that I might be motivated to help someone even if they don't want to work, if they simply haven't been trained to be industrious by their parents. I think that such a person has much greater hurdles to overcome than others even though the responsibility ultimately rests with him/her personally. But there's a point where you are correct. An empty stomach - that's exactly what Paul meant.
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
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mike
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Re: Capitalism and the Gospel

Post by mike »

Josh wrote:Capitalism means using capital to make even more money. A rich person in a capitalist society can never work, yet have plenty to eat.

Sounds like the opposite of what the Bible says.
I use capital to make money all the time. I haven't figured out how to do it without working, though...
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
ken_sylvania
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Re: Capitalism and the Gospel

Post by ken_sylvania »

mike wrote:I'm saying that I might be motivated to help someone even if they don't want to work, if they simply haven't been trained to be industrious by their parents. I think that such a person has much greater hurdles to overcome than others even though the responsibility ultimately rests with him/her personally. But there's a point where you are correct. An empty stomach - that's exactly what Paul meant.
I appreciate seeing an added level of tolerance and grace extended to such a person, which seems to be similar to your position. Habits are hard to break, and to some extent, for me to extend a helping hand and try to help an individual develop good work habits (which may include providing encouragement and praise for stumbling efforts) is providing help similar to that provided to a child who is being taught to work. I like us to be careful not to enable bad habits by enforcing them with unconditional assistance.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Capitalism and the Gospel

Post by Bootstrap »

ken_sylvania wrote:
mike wrote:I'm saying that I might be motivated to help someone even if they don't want to work, if they simply haven't been trained to be industrious by their parents. I think that such a person has much greater hurdles to overcome than others even though the responsibility ultimately rests with him/her personally. But there's a point where you are correct. An empty stomach - that's exactly what Paul meant.
I appreciate seeing an added level of tolerance and grace extended to such a person, which seems to be similar to your position. Habits are hard to break, and to some extent, for me to extend a helping hand and try to help an individual develop good work habits (which may include providing encouragement and praise for stumbling efforts) is providing help similar to that provided to a child who is being taught to work. I like us to be careful not to enable bad habits by enforcing them with unconditional assistance.
We face this in working with refugees. When they first arrived, we decided to buy them cell phones and some air time. But we're avoiding buying them more things now, because we don't want to build dependency - this is very much emphasized in our training.

They have support for a limited number of months before they learn enough English to work.
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RZehr
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Re: Capitalism and the Gospel

Post by RZehr »

Robert wrote:
RZehr wrote:Regarding pure capitalism, how does it work with Luke 12:33 for example? Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. This is not a good use of capital by the worlds measure.
Pure capitalism is about allowing a person to decide for themselves how they will use their resources. I see no contradiction with the Luke 12:33 verse. Jesus calls us to use our resources well to help others. If we use them all up and have none left, how can we help others? We become one who needs to be helped.

Jesus says do not worry about tomorrow, but gleans the fields to feed himself today. I see it more about focus, then possessions.
Capitalism requires capital. The more you give away, the less efficient, or successful, you will be in a capitalistic economic system.

I think of capitalism is different than the free market. I think capitalism as a segment of the free market, and maybe not the definition of it.
For example, compare a sole proprietor operated business with a coop. Both rely on the free market, but what is done with the profits are different. Small difference, sure, but the profits of a coop tend to inhibit accumilation of massive wealth. I don't think a cooperative system would lead to 8 men being as rich as the poor half of the worlds population.
I think pure capitalism, unchecked by government, winds up in a monopolistic system. Which I suppose you could argue is still a free market, but in theory only, hardly in reality.

I'm not stating that one is better than the other. I'm saying that each can be exploited for selfish ends, and we Christians should pay attention to the dangers. Thats all.
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RZehr
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Re: Capitalism and the Gospel

Post by RZehr »

mike wrote:
Josh wrote:Capitalism means using capital to make even more money. A rich person in a capitalist society can never work, yet have plenty to eat.

Sounds like the opposite of what the Bible says.
I use capital to make money all the time. I haven't figured out how to do it without working, though...
I've put some money in a day trading account, and made $100. I hardly consider that working.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Capitalism and the Gospel

Post by ken_sylvania »

RZehr wrote:
mike wrote:
Josh wrote:Capitalism means using capital to make even more money. A rich person in a capitalist society can never work, yet have plenty to eat.

Sounds like the opposite of what the Bible says.
I use capital to make money all the time. I haven't figured out how to do it without working, though...
I've put some money in a day trading account, and made $100. I hardly consider that working.
How did you figure out how to open the account, what kind of account was likely to make you $100 vs. lose you $1,000, etc.?
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RZehr
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Re: Capitalism and the Gospel

Post by RZehr »

ken_sylvania wrote:
RZehr wrote:
mike wrote:
I use capital to make money all the time. I haven't figured out how to do it without working, though...
I've put some money in a day trading account, and made $100. I hardly consider that working.
How did you figure out how to open the account, what kind of account was likely to make you $100 vs. lose you $1,000, etc.?
Google. It was just pure luck. I short sold a stock that was near its 52 week high, and it went higher, then below, and I bought to cover.
My profit or loss was not governed in this trade by my effort or skill, but rather directly to the amount of capitol I used. Had I done this with 100 times the capitol, I would have been rewarded 100 times over. But with the exact same amount of effort, or work on my part. I consider this to be strictly capitalism.
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Valerie
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Re: Capitalism and the Gospel

Post by Valerie »

mike wrote:
2 Thessalonians 3:10 ESV
For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
This statement appears to support the capitalist principle of private property. I like the ESV rendering "not willing to work." There are those who are not able to work and who are deserving of assistance by the community. Those who are not willing to work are not deserving of assistance according to this statement of Paul. It also seems to disagree with the concept of equal pay unless there is also equal work.
Agree on this viewpoint-
Matthew 26:11
King James Bible
For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

Seems Jesus view was that we would not all be equal, financially- and that we would be tested on what we do with our money- whether we would be a cheerful giver, or like the widow with two mites who gave it all- or that it is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

If we were all equal, could He test our hearts? Test our faith?
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