Capitalism and the Gospel

[MaxPC]

I once lived in an area where two Mennonite truss factories operated. They were competitors until a tornado leveled the one business to the ground. The other operating factory offered the non-operational factory the privilege of building trusses in their facility during the night so that the non-operational factory wouldn't lose customers and so that the employees would have income.
This is mutual aid, not capitalism, and it happened in a capitalistic country in which these two companies functioned capitalistically until the time of the tragedy.

As far as I know, they went back to operating capitalistically after 6 months.

To me this is one exemplar proof that Christian presence and integrity can be salt and light within any economic system including capitalism. He loved his neighbor above economic profit. Brilliant!

The problem in any system or organization seems to be greed whose definition doesn't involve only money but other objectives as well

intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.
synonyms: avarice · 
cupidity · acquisitiveness · covetousness · rapacity · materialism · mercenariness · pleonexia · money-grubbing · affluenza · gluttony · hunger · voracity · insatiability · gourmandism · intemperance · overeating · self-indulgence · piggishness · desire · appetite · hunger · thirst · craving · longing · lust · yearning · hankering · avidity · eagerness · yen · itch
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An intense desire to be famous or considered the most intellectual or even to be right all the time is also considered greedy. It's the love of these things that makes them more important than God or one's neighbor and therefore the root of all evil. (1 Cor 6:9-11; 1 Tim 6:10)

Man has many pitfalls and temptations to sin.

[Wade]

2 Thessalonians 3:10 ESV
For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.

This statement appears to support the capitalist principle of private property.

Interestingly it is private property or borders that seem to be a similar heart to resistance to my space, things, rights, and privileges that is completely opposed to the kingdom of God.

Matthew 5: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Not saying we can't have private property per se but it doesn't really fit with the kingdom of God, that is without bounds and borders and private properties, but rather a common sharing that is a free gift to all.

Galatians 4: 8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

But that also doesn't give us the right to take:

Ephesians 4: 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

[Wade]

the only way I see capitalism work is eventually the people at the end of the line are oppressed.

What do you mean by people at the end of the line?

Maybe something like people in third world countries working 12 hour days to make garbage little toys for pennies a day and then those things are sold at Wal-Mart, being bought for mere cents by us Westerners. And when the prices go up on anything we are so troubled as a society at what we are going to do to manage - meanwhile we work 8-10 hours a day and have a nice home and vehicle(s) and computers and smartphones. And we are upset when we might have to back off on our data usage because our last phone bill was too high... I am sure there are people that work much harder than me but yet do not have such luxuries at their disposable - yet I buy the products that they make...

My place of work is so highly automated now that people normally don't really do too much... Operators can fall asleep for times and it not effect production... People are getting laid off in the place of machines. Too bad for the guy at the end of the line with no education or seniority or experience. If he has no money or support to better himself it doesn't always matter if he has a good work ethic and attitude.


I'd like also to add that the world is going to do as it will and we will never see a perfect system while in this life. We as Christian's need to seek God's will in functioning as well as we can in following His commands cheerfully in whatever environment or economic state we find ourselves in trusting that He will work it all together for good. Therefore I am not against capitalism but rather would like to partake of and point to a higher standard that I believe those who are pilgrims and strangers will desire to share in while using the system that they currently find themselves in to the highest profitability towards the furtherance of His kingdom.

[mike]

Maybe something like people in third world countries working 12 hour days to make garbage little toys for pennies a day and then those things are sold at Wal-Mart, being bought for mere cents by us Westerners. And when the prices go up on anything we are so troubled as a society at what we are going to do to manage - meanwhile we work 8-10 hours a day and have a nice home and vehicle(s) and computers and smartphones. And we are upset when we might have to back off on our data usage because our last phone bill was too high... I am sure there are people that work much harder than me but yet do not have such luxuries at their disposable - yet I buy the products that they make...

My place of work is so highly automated now that people normally don't really do too much... Operators can fall asleep for times and it not effect production... People are getting laid off in the place of machines. Too bad for the guy at the end of the line with no education or seniority or experience. If he has no money or support to better himself it doesn't always matter if he has a good work ethic and attitude.

OK, I understand. We are not in a position to understand the situation of those working in other countries. It could be that they are being lifted from poverty by the jobs that are created by exporting widgets to the west. Some of them may be in "sweatshop" situations as well.

And I agree that good work ethic and attitude do not always guarantee someone a good-paying job. In my area it would be hard to find someone like that who isn't employed somewhere, but I agree it can happen. As Christians we are here for one another in times like that.

I'd like also to add that the world is going to do as it will and we will never see a perfect system while in this life. We as Christian's need to seek God's will in functioning as well as we can in following His commands cheerfully in whatever environment or economic state we find ourselves in trusting that He will work it all together for good. Therefore I am not against capitalism but rather would like to partake of and point to a higher standard that I believe those who are pilgrims and strangers will desire to share in while using the system that they currently find themselves in to the highest profitability towards the furtherance of His kingdom.

Excellent. I agree.

[Robert]

Maybe something like people in third world countries working 12 hour days to make garbage little toys for pennies a day and then those things are sold at Wal-Mart, being bought for mere cents by us Westerners.

Some of this is because of their governments.

I also want to remind everyone that I posted this in "General Theology" not current events or other. Trying to keep this focused on theology and how we view capitalism from that lens. Not trying to point to you Wade, Just posting an addendum.

Here is Rabbi Daniel Lapin talking about prosperity in the OT.

https://youtu.be/QJXntuEdmmQ

[RZehr]

I don't see Jesus concerned with economic systems, so I believe we Christians can live under any.
However, it seems to me that each one will be exploited selfishly by fallen man. Since the Bible does have answers for us, we can turn to it to find solutions that would apply to each misuse of each system. Christians are not to be selfish.

Regarding pure capitalism, how does it work with Luke 12:33 for example? Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. This is not a good use of capital by the worlds measure.

I'm just saying that us Christian will not be able to be both pure capitalist and pure Christians.
While I acknowledge that for the Christian matters of the heart such as laziness, greed, generosity are not dictated by the economic system we are in, I believe that for the unregenerate man, capitalism tends toward selfish materialism, and communism tends toward selfish laziness.

[Wayne in Maine]

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our necessities but of their advantages." - Adam Smith

"Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others." - Saul of Tarsus

[Robert]

Regarding pure capitalism, how does it work with Luke 12:33 for example? Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. This is not a good use of capital by the worlds measure.

Pure capitalism is about allowing a person to decide for themselves how they will use their resources. I see no contradiction with the Luke 12:33 verse. Jesus calls us to use our resources well to help others. If we use them all up and have none left, how can we help others? We become one who needs to be helped.

Jesus says do not worry about tomorrow, but gleans the fields to feed himself today. I see it more about focus, then possessions.

[temporal1]

an observation, and a question for the discussion:
1. the U.S. is not a purely capitalistic country, presently, somewhat of a hybrid;
2. are there any existing purely capitalistic countries?

[ken_sylvania]

2 Thessalonians 3:10 ESV
For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.

This statement appears to support the capitalist principle of private property. I like the ESV rendering "not willing to work." There are those who are not able to work and who are deserving of assistance by the community. Those who are not willing to work are not deserving of assistance according to this statement of Paul. It also seems to disagree with the concept of equal pay unless there is also equal work.

The problem with lack of willingness to work is that this unwillingness can be the result of poor or nonexistent training, which isn't the fault of the person. So as a Christian I don't think that we should just disregard these factors when deciding who is "worthy" of assistance.

What exactly are you trying to say? Are you saying that if a person is hungry because they can't hold down a job because they haven't been trained to work, they should receive a different level of assistance than a person in otherwise the same situation except that he was trained to work when he was young but doesn't feel like working now?
This maybe sounds a bit cold-hearted, but at some point, the best motivator, whether a person is trained or untrained, is an empty stomach.