Capitalism and the Gospel

[Robert]

capitalism tends to be selfish in nature.

I would like to explore this a little. I see it much differently, but want to hear the opposing viewpoint. I would ask that we try, can not always be done, to show scriptural references that support our viewpoints.

I also want to ask the question, "Do we have our opinion and use scripture to support it, or do we have our opinion because scripture guides us?"

I am not totally sure about myself, so am really open here.

[lesterb]

An illustration...

I worked for a fortune 100 company. I think they were something like 65 on the list. I was there for over nine years, though they didn't own our operation that long. But they were a good company to work for - paid well, gave good benefits and hired good people to work with. They had around 10,000 employees world-wide.

I listened in on a town hall meeting for employees where the CEO assured us that layoffs were not a consideration in spite of the economy. They might not replace people who quit, etc., but they weren't going to lay people off. So that sounded sort of nice, I thought.

Except that about three months later I was laid off, along with some others. I forget the exact percentage, around 20% of our Canadian division. The excuse was money.

Like I said, they were a good company to work for. They really supported their employees. But when push came to shove, money was still more important than I was. I think you will find that to invariably be the case with capitalism.

[KingdomBuilder]

An illustration...

I worked for a fortune 100 company. I think they were something like 65 on the list. I was there for over nine years, though they didn't own our operation that long. But they were a good company to work for - paid well, gave good benefits and hired good people to work with. They had around 10,000 employees world-wide.

I listened in on a town hall meeting for employees where the CEO assured us that layoffs were not a consideration in spite of the economy. They might not replace people who quit, etc., but they weren't going to lay people off. So that sounded sort of nice, I thought.

Except that about three months later I was laid off, along with some others. I forget the exact percentage, around 20% of our Canadian division. The excuse was money.

Like I said, they were a good company to work for. They really supported their employees. But when push came to shove, money was still more important than I was. I think you will find that to invariably be the case with capitalism.

Some of my close family works for the fortune 500 company in high positions; I agree that it is heavily laden with selfishness. On a company-wide and individual level.

[Wade]

I worked for a company that was bought by on of the top 125th richest men in the world.

This man also owned another business nearby that supplied most of the fiber we processed and because of government regulations we were restricted on the amount of that fiber because of a possible unfair advantage to the other industries in the same market. Although no one could provide any proof of poor practice in anyway we were limited to the point of not being able to run properly and were to the point of laying people off...

The GM called me into his office for a private meeting shortly after all of this going on. He told me that the business had sold. He said because of the scare it would create that we had to go easy about how we handled telling the employees. He then went on to explain that the company was sold to a Swiss holding company that was owned by the rich mans nephew... He told me this with a laugh and said to tell no one.

Then he went on to tell me something while having a sneer on his mouth and eyes squinted, "When you have lots of money, then you don't have to follow the laws - there is always a way around them!"

From other experiences, I would say his comment pretty well sums up a lot of what I think Capitalism is.

Needless to say I very much enjoy not having a manager type position any longer...

[Robert]

I would ask that we try, can not always be done, to show scriptural references that support our viewpoints.

[lesterb]

I would ask that we try, can not always be done, to show scriptural references that support our viewpoints.

Oops, sorry...

[Wade]

Maybe we got off to a bad start without defining capitalism?

Capitalism is an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

Luke 12
33 Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

That command from Christ doesn't sound the least be profitable the way capitalism is talking about being profitable.

Luke 6
20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said:
“Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
21 “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied.
“Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.

Does anyone know any capitalist's that are feeling blessed if they are poor, hungry, and weeping?

Matthew 6
3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

This is not a common practice encouraged from capitalism...

19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust[e] destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

However, neither am I excited if the government is in control of all the economics -

Acts 5:29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.

So:

Matthew 6 again
25 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?[g] 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

34 “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

[Robert]

Does not giving to the poor assume you have something to give? If you have nothing, how can you give to those in need? Are you not the one in need?

[Wade]

Does not giving to the poor assume you have something to give? If you have nothing, how can you give to those in need? Are you not the one in need?

Depends...

Should we assume the poor have nothing to give?

Which kingdom perspective should we view this from?
This has been a really challenge in my life! When we were really physically poor it was hard not to feel very inferior. We couldn't put money in the offering... And since we couldn't afford to make it to church it was even less likely to that we would give money...

One can still offer up prayer's for others.
One can give a lending hand.
One can give a listening ear.
One can give words of encouragement.
One can offer love and forgiveness.
One can make another feel welcome or like family together in Christ.
I am sure others could extend this list.

Maybe this might not be keeping completely in context but all of these things have meant more to me than any given money while we were struggling financially.

Reminds me of a Mennonite brother coming to our house in a snow storm to bring me a winter jacket a few years back. He had visited work recently to see the house we were building. I was very thankful for his kind gesture but I was taking back the most when he apologized that he had for too long over looked the need that I didn't have a winter jacket. I wasn't looking for pity but the kindness and care he showed in words meant more to me than the jacket did.

I put a note and date in my bible with his name by these verses:

1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Helps to remember to follow such an example of giving love and kindness to others.

[temporal1]

When i think of how to do business, i think of Boaz.

Jesus does not differentiate between different ways of earthly government, even those implementing slavery, indentured servants; human nature is selfish, this is the root problem, regardless of form of government.

if not, if style of government was key, Jesus would have stated: go and make all governments socialist (or other.) He did not.

from what i can decipher, all governments/ruling classes in history have had their wealthy ruling minority. socialism is no different.

1 Thessalonians 5:18
Give thanks in everything, for this is the will of God in Yeshua The Messiah among you.

i'm unsure of what form of earthly government Boaz lived under, but, he managed to live+work+thrive on earth while keeping God at center. i believe, this is Jesus' central message, and, this is why dedicated Christians are found all around the earth, some in the harshest, most hostile governments.

Boaz, Job, Hosea, are all examples of keeping God at center regardless of earthly challenges.

Capitalism provides the opportunity to give unselfishly, many do, many do not.

wealth and security certainly do not directly equate to generosity, scriptures reflect this, documenting the generosity of the poor, the hard challenges of the rich .. in my family, the wealthiest are not the most generous! .. in the world, "family planning" was supposed to enable better choices .. it appears (to me) it's enabled greediness and materialism!

this passage from 2 Corinthians possibly suggests socialism may be less favorable,
i.e., socialism is based on giving according to compulsion of gov mandate, not on the joy of giving:

2 Corinthians 9:7
Every man according to what he is in his mind and not according to grief or of compulsion,
for God loves the joyful giver.

lots to think about.