Ecclesial Evolution

General Christian Theology
GaryK
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Re: Ecclesial Evolution

Postby GaryK » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:34 pm

Bootstrap wrote:
GaryK wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:If Plain Catholics don't exist, let's stop pretending. The cost of avoiding this discussion or pretending, whichever it is, is really high for MN. We can always feel the tension of avoiding this discussion, and it never goes away. It keeps coming out in sarcasm or people who choose to pointedly shun other participants or a variety of other ways.

Your persistence in this matter is not helpful IMO. Have you considered the cost this may be having on MN? This is in no way a defense of Max.


Ignoring it doesn't seem to make it go away. Most other forms of Amish fiction are not protected as well on MN.

I don't know the low-cost alternative. The conflict doesn't seem to go away no matter what I do. I think that's because the issue doesn't go away even when we're ignoring it. This is where the Amish fiction is being written, and that's the basis of his participation here.

I don't recall having much, if any, interactions with Max on MD or MN. Do you feel an obligation to? If it's fiction it's fiction. As Ravi Zacharias asks of atheists he encounters "what is it that you are trying to disprove?"
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Ecclesial Evolution

Postby Heirbyadoption » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:51 pm

I'm curious too, Boot. I'll agree Max started out seeming a bit arrogant and elusive (while, in fact, he's been much more polite and less in your face on MN than he was on MD, as far as I can tell unless I missed a run in between you two), but your seemingly persistent and rather aggressive attitude toward him on here is hardly conducive toward Max or any other recipient responding or continuing to engage you. And no, I'm not defending him in any way, I'm just curious the same as Gary - what is it that you are trying to disprove? Maybe we're all misunderstanding or ignorant of the reasons behind your approach. It would seem that if he feels he or his group (real or otherwise) of separatist Catholics (or whatever they may be :P ) are in transition toward an anabaptist theology or ecclesiology, so be it. Feel free to disagree with him. After all, this is still theoretically a multitude of counselors; playing nice starts with "me", not the other guy. But it seems to continue to spill into ongoing threads. Can you enlighten us a bit?
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Ecclesial Evolution

Postby Heirbyadoption » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:41 pm

Brother Boot?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Ecclesial Evolution

Postby Bootstrap » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:00 pm

Heirbyadoption wrote:Brother Boot?


I'm not ignoring this as much as taking some time. Here's something I want to be careful about - I don't want to pour gas on the fire to satisfy your curiosity, but I don't want to ignore your questions either. Let me give it a try.

First off, I appreciate you and Gary for confronting me directly on this. Someone else confronted me in a PM, and Valerie also expressed her concern.

Heirbyadoption wrote:I'm curious too, Boot. I'll agree Max started out seeming a bit arrogant and elusive (while, in fact, he's been much more polite and less in your face on MN than he was on MD, as far as I can tell unless I missed a run in between you two), but your seemingly persistent and rather aggressive attitude toward him on here is hardly conducive toward Max or any other recipient responding or continuing to engage you.


I apologize to everyone here, and to Max, if I am being aggressive. And I definitely get the feeling that this has been too much.

Heirbyadoption wrote:And no, I'm not defending him in any way, I'm just curious the same as Gary - what is it that you are trying to disprove? Maybe we're all misunderstanding or ignorant of the reasons behind your approach. It would seem that if he feels he or his group (real or otherwise) of separatist Catholics (or whatever they may be :P ) are in transition toward an anabaptist theology or ecclesiology, so be it.


If that's what is going on, I wish he would say so, and clearly. That would make it easier for me to relate to him. I had the impression from his other statements - on MD and on a Catholic forum - that he is saying he is 100% loyal to the Catholic Church and to its teachings. He made those statements a while back, if this has changed, saying so would help me understand. That would be an explanation for choosing Anabaptist-style clothing, if he is rebelling against Catholic teaching for the same reasons we did.

I would also find it helpful - if he is really asking plain Mennos what they believe or do - if he would simply ask, with open ended questions. What set me off in that recent thread is that it felt like a sermon saying that non-resistant Anabaptists and Catholics do not talk about politics, and discussing what the appropriate strategies are for talking with that tax collector over there. I think both groups do talk about politics, and Max had been participating in a political thread up to an hour before he posted that thread. I think we all struggle with getting stuck in political conversations that are uncomfortable, that we feel trapped in and don't know how to get out of. And perhaps I'm being overly sensitive, but it felt to me, especially given the timing, that the thread was aimed at implying something about me, while also explicitly telling me that I could not participate in the thread.

Heirbyadoption wrote:Feel free to disagree with him. After all, this is still theoretically a multitude of counselors; playing nice starts with "me", not the other guy. But it seems to continue to spill into ongoing threads. Can you enlighten us a bit?


I agree that playing nice starts with me. And I know that sometimes I don't get it right. Perhaps a multitude of counselors can help me do better. I'm listening.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Ecclesial Evolution

Postby Bootstrap » Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:40 am

One more response here, then I'm out of this thread.

Bootstrap wrote:Here's something I want to be careful about - I don't want to pour gas on the fire to satisfy your curiosity, but I don't want to ignore your questions either.


If anyone wants to discuss this further, please send me a PM instead of responding here. I think we've been over these concerns more than enough times in public, and public airing of these concerns is precisely what people are saying is too much.

Bootstrap wrote:I agree that playing nice starts with me. And I know that sometimes I don't get it right. Perhaps a multitude of counselors can help me do better. I'm listening.


So please respond in PMs. That's where I will be listening.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Ecclesial Evolution

Postby Heirbyadoption » Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:48 am

That pretty wells clarifies for me. Thank you for responding.
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Hats Off
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Re: Ecclesial Evolution

Postby Hats Off » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:19 pm

I keep telling anyone who will listen that we Old Orders seem to be shifting gradually to a more Catholic type of leadership and practise.
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Frodo
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Re: Ecclesial Evolution

Postby Frodo » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:51 am

Hats Off wrote:I keep telling anyone who will listen that we Old Orders seem to be shifting gradually to a more Catholic type of leadership and practise.


I would like to hear about this in more detail.
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MaxPC
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Re: Ecclesial Evolution

Postby MaxPC » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:34 pm

Frodo wrote:
Hats Off wrote:I keep telling anyone who will listen that we Old Orders seem to be shifting gradually to a more Catholic type of leadership and practise.


I would like to hear about this in more detail.

Thank you for returning to the thread topic. I'm interested as well, Hats Off.
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Max (aka Plain Catholic)
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appleman2006
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Re: Ecclesial Evolution

Postby appleman2006 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:57 pm

MaxPC wrote:
Frodo wrote:
Hats Off wrote:I keep telling anyone who will listen that we Old Orders seem to be shifting gradually to a more Catholic type of leadership and practise.


I would like to hear about this in more detail.

Thank you for returning to the thread topic. I'm interested as well, Hats Off.


Keep in mind Max, that, and I am just guessing here, but I bet Hats off does not see what he stated as a good thing.
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