Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively

General Christian Theology
Ernie
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Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively

Post by Ernie »

1.
There is an idea afloat that Christians should not ask people to do something that is not explicitly taught in the NT. The idea is that Christians should only submit if it is something that is already explicitly mentioned in the N.T. If anything more is asked of someone, it is assumed that they are not very spiritual, not very scriptural, not in tune with the Spirit of God, or a combination of these.
The same people would not apply this standard to parents/children. They would believe that parents can ask their children to submit to certain rules and the children should submit.
If you are familiar with the thinking I just described, can you help me understand why authority/submission is appropriate in the latter but not the former? I'm not setting a trap here. Just wanting to hear what the rationale is.


2.
Most professing Christians in America believe that the Spirit of God can lead a group of Christians to start a ministry to a certain demographic, lead a group of Christians to worship in a certain way or place, and lead a group of Christians to choose a leader, etc.
However, many professing Christians do not believe that the Spirit of God would lead a church to ask certain questions of a person before communing with him, require certain modesty standards, identify unacceptable educational environments, etc.
Can someone familiar with this way of thinking help me understand how these people are fine with the former but not the latter?
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
silentreader
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively

Post by silentreader »

Ernie wrote:1.
There is an idea afloat that Christians should not ask people to do something that is not explicitly taught in the NT. The idea is that Christians should only submit if it is something that is already explicitly mentioned in the N.T. If anything more is asked of someone, it is assumed that they are not very spiritual, not very scriptural, not in tune with the Spirit of God, or a combination of these.
The same people would not apply this standard to parents/children. They would believe that parents can ask their children to submit to certain rules and the children should submit.
If you are familiar with the thinking I just described, can you help me understand why authority/submission is appropriate in the latter but not the former? I'm not setting a trap here. Just wanting to hear what the rationale is.


2.
Most professing Christians in America believe that the Spirit of God can lead a group of Christians to start a ministry to a certain demographic, lead a group of Christians to worship in a certain way or place, and lead a group of Christians to choose a leader, etc.
However, many professing Christians do not believe that the Spirit of God would lead a church to ask certain questions of a person before communing with him, require certain modesty standards, identify unacceptable educational environments, etc.
Can someone familiar with this way of thinking help me understand how these people are fine with the former but not the latter?
For some reason the first thing I thought of when reading 1&2 above was the comparison of apples and oranges.
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joshuabgood
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively

Post by joshuabgood »

I don't think "collective" interpretation is unspiritual etc. However there are some dangers that need to be pointed out. Might doesn't make right. And just because the majority of a congregation or a majority of that congregation's ministry are feeling "led" a certain direction doesn't always ensure such is actually the case. Dangers of ethnocentrism, group think, tyrannizing the minority, etc all are real and can be fostered in too strong a collective mantra. Additionally, simply put, we must all accept personal responsibility for our actions. That truth entails that we should carefully weigh out in our own minds whether or not a group of folks is headed the right direction or not. Lastly, I wouldn't go so far as to say you couldn't ask additional things, beyond what Jesus and Paul did, however, I think there should be caution in doing so and flexibility for when the context demanding the "rule" changes. And generally a ditch is over there that it is quite simple to slide into if one isn't very careful. (FWIW I have always belonged to a church that has had extra-biblical rules).

As for the comparison to children and parents, I don't think it quite the same thing. In the one case you have young, scientifically immature, children who among other things, don't have fully formed prefrontal lobes...and who are not capable even of physical survival on their own.

Personally I am fine with asking some questions prior to communion. Seems to make sense to me...I suppose we could discuss what we think the right questions are. I'd be interested in what yours would be? And would they include things like "have you spoken harshly to your husband/wife/children this past week?" With regard to modesty (I am not sure if you mean coverage of clothing or modesty which in my mind are two very distinct, though often conflated, issues), but I would say ask about modesty - which should cover finances, wages, etc...
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Ernie
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively

Post by Ernie »

I'm quite familiar with the dangers. I tend to point them out whenever I think powers are being abused. You can ask my church brothers if you need confirmation.
The only reason I am sticking up for these powers are because they seem to be completely off the table in some recent discussions.
Thanks though for mentioning them.
joshuabgood wrote:As for the comparison to children and parents, I don't think it quite the same thing. In the one case you have young, scientifically immature, children who among other things, don't have fully formed prefrontal lobes...and who are not capable even of physical survival on their own.
Would submitting or subjecting oneself to "masters" or "civil leaders" be a better comparison?
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Ernie wrote:1.
There is an idea afloat that Christians should not ask people to do something that is not explicitly taught in the NT. The idea is that Christians should only submit if it is something that is already explicitly mentioned in the N.T. If anything more is asked of someone, it is assumed that they are not very spiritual, not very scriptural, not in tune with the Spirit of God, or a combination of these.
The same people would not apply this standard to parents/children. They would believe that parents can ask their children to submit to certain rules and the children should submit.
If you are familiar with the thinking I just described, can you help me understand why authority/submission is appropriate in the latter but not the former? I'm not setting a trap here. Just wanting to hear what the rationale is.


2.
Most professing Christians in America believe that the Spirit of God can lead a group of Christians to start a ministry to a certain demographic, lead a group of Christians to worship in a certain way or place, and lead a group of Christians to choose a leader, etc.
However, many professing Christians do not believe that the Spirit of God would lead a church to ask certain questions of a person before communing with him, require certain modesty standards, identify unacceptable educational environments, etc.
Can someone familiar with this way of thinking help me understand how these people are fine with the former but not the latter?
Oh, where do I start? The whole concept of "personal savior" takes the entire church out of the whole salvation process. Salvation has been totally separated from discipleship, no change of life is either demanded or expected, as long as someone fits in routine middle class america. Drinking....fine, enough jewelry to keep Jezebel happy....cool, music that would fit in a secular club....right in church. Salvation is seen as going forward and declaring that you assent to a set of beliefs, after which you are declared "saved." Joining a church is almost seen the same as joining a political party, and is entirely optional. In my former church, an elder was about to be set apart, and it was found he had never actually joined the church!!!! They use a concept called adherencey, that if you attend and contribute, you are more or less considered a member.

Some of the things that conservative mennonites hold to as distinctives are allorgized away (Headcovering), rendered almost meaningless (Modesty standards) or just simply left up to an individual (Communion). In 20 years in leadership the only one I ever say threatened with loss of church membership was a member who left his wife and started openly living with another woman. He resigned preemptively. But don't worry, since most evangelical churches don't require letters any more, he will be received into membership elsewhere, as soon as the divorce is final.

I guess I could go on for hours.

J.M.
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Josh
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively

Post by Josh »

In our culture people in general view themselves as individuals, with a vague sense of belonging to various groups, but mostly in terms of rights they get because of that, not obligations to do things for the benefit of the group.

The average Christian doesn't stop to think they should rely on their brethren and on God himself to their food, shelter, companionship, and other needs. Instead, they think they work, get money, and then have the right to spend it on their needs.

Interestingly, many Christians are interested in trying to apply some examples in Acts to modern day life (like speaking in tongues, or citing the Ethiopian baptism) but would completely balk at selling their property for one who has need, and in general relying on other Christians to meet their needs.

They are quite eager to rely on the world to meet their needs and indeed assume the world will continue to faithfully do so.
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Josh
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively

Post by Josh »

Now, with such a mindset that I can rely on myself alone to acquire clothing, food, etc., there is no need to submit to my brethren as to what clothes I should wear.

In the long run, we submit to the world to tell us what to wear. And we think we are doing well since "scripture doesn't say what we have to wear". We miss out on the joy of brotherhood with believers and instead have friendship with the world, and in so doing, end up basically useless to actually help a dying, hurting world.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively

Post by Bootstrap »

Ernie wrote:Would submitting or subjecting oneself to "masters" or "civil leaders" be a better comparison?
I don't think you're trying to say that my church is like my parents, my master, or my civil authority. I get to choose my church, I don't get to choose my parents. The authority of a master over a slave is absolute, and I would hope your church does not claim that level of authority. A civil authority can do things like jail its citizens and is accountable primarily to its constitution, and I don't think your church operates that way. Husband and wife doesn't work for me either, that's the model they used in the intentional community that I was part of for eight years, and it got us in real trouble.

A church has authority that is different in kind from any other authority I can think of. I think it's important to take a careful look at Scripture and ask questions like these:
  • What level of authority does Paul claim over the church, how does he exercise it, and when?
  • How does Paul teach Timothy to use authority?
  • What does Jesus tell leaders about how to relate to authority and status?
  • Were early Christians uniform in their practice? What level of uniformity does your church claim, and why?
  • How should believers approach a situation where they strongly disagree about something that is not clearly commanded in the Bible? What examples does the New Testament give?
Our movement started by rejecting the authority of the Catholic pope and the magisterium because we believed it was at odds with the Bible. I agree that the church has authority, and that "me and Jesus" is missing the fact that Christianity is all about building the body, not a collection of individuals. But I think it's important to spell that authority out carefully, on the basis of Scripture, and not just with analogies that are not clear about the limits of this authority. When questioned, I think it's important to keep returning to the authority given to the body in Scripture.

Authority has dangers, and many churches have become cults because they did not understand the authority given them. Any authority comes with a temptation to abuse authority. Group leadership can abuse authority the same way that individual leaders do. So I think it's really important to examine the above questions carefully.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:Now, with such a mindset that I can rely on myself alone to acquire clothing, food, etc., there is no need to submit to my brethren as to what clothes I should wear.

In the long run, we submit to the world to tell us what to wear. And we think we are doing well since "scripture doesn't say what we have to wear". We miss out on the joy of brotherhood with believers and instead have friendship with the world, and in so doing, end up basically useless to actually help a dying, hurting world.
Scripture does not tell you precisely how to apply Scripture to every culture in every time. Christians still need to wrestle with these things. You can rarely apply Scripture without going beyond what it teaches, asking God to tell you how to apply it to our life now, as a body.

In my mind, that's the real authority of the church - it is the discerning Body of Christ, filled with the Spirit, that together seeks God's will for applying Scripture in our time and place. It must not ever allow itself to be at odds with Scripture, or to claim the authority of Scripture, or to ignore the Spirit speaking through members who disagree with others. But you can't really be part of a body if you are living a life at odds with the direction the body is called in.

To me, leaving room for people to discern that they are called in a different direction and seeing that as a sign to look for another body is an important part of this. They may simply have a different calling. Barnabas (Acts 15:36-41).
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Wade
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively

Post by Wade »

Ernie wrote:1.
There is an idea afloat that Christians should not ask people to do something that is not explicitly taught in the NT. The idea is that Christians should only submit if it is something that is already explicitly mentioned in the N.T. If anything more is asked of someone, it is assumed that they are not very spiritual, not very scriptural, not in tune with the Spirit of God, or a combination of these.
The same people would not apply this standard to parents/children. They would believe that parents can ask their children to submit to certain rules and the children should submit.
If you are familiar with the thinking I just described, can you help me understand why authority/submission is appropriate in the latter but not the former? I'm not setting a trap here. Just wanting to hear what the rationale is.
Just consider that someone that could be accused of this type of thinking might actually not be thinking this way at all.
When a parent expects things from their children they also help in supplying the tools, resources, teaching, training, etc. needed for them to be successful in obeying or they shouldn't be asking those things of their children.
When a church sets expectations on people without as least helping with the tools, resources, teaching, training, etc. needed for them to be successful in obeying, then it is two completely different things.
Would a church go over to a third world country and tell people if they want to join then they had better make the right dresses, coverings and etc. without helping them?! Why do people get treated differently here in North America? If we assume everybody has the resources, time, money, skills, etc. to do everything that people were raised with their whole lives then it just reminds me James 2:
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Is not the "works" being talked about in this passage of scripture in context works of aiding others and not works of obeying the church? Remember the scripture says, "...God chosen the poor of this world..." And what about those who have a desire to submit and commit themselves for the sake of Christ even though poor are new comers and are uncertain what to do because they want to give rather than look for handouts...

Otherwise I completely agree with you Ernie.
And believe that if a person has the means to submit and commit themselves then I would fell that they are without excuse and should.
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