Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively

[Josh]

I don't think "collective" interpretation is unspiritual etc. However there are some dangers that need to be pointed out. Might doesn't make right. And just because the majority of a congregation or a majority of that congregation's ministry are feeling "led" a certain direction doesn't always ensure such is actually the case. Dangers of ethnocentrism, group think, tyrannizing the minority, etc all are real and can be fostered in too strong a collective mantra. Additionally, simply put, we must all accept personal responsibility for our actions. That truth entails that we should carefully weigh out in our own minds whether or not a group of folks is headed the right direction or not. Lastly, I wouldn't go so far as to say you couldn't ask additional things, beyond what Jesus and Paul did, however, I think there should be caution in doing so and flexibility for when the context demanding the "rule" changes. And generally a ditch is over there that it is quite simple to slide into if one isn't very careful. (FWIW I have always belonged to a church that has had extra-biblical rules).

The bolded above is where the rubber meets the road in my opinion. Our discipleship is not a wagon ride where we hop on aboard and go along riding with the others, though there are some who think it's just that easy (in every church we find these). Discipleship in obedience to Christ is a daily discernment and conversation with Jesus, which means we listen to God; to our fellowship; and we also wrestle with our own perceptions. The real danger is when we give up and just go along to get along. Complacency is a slippery slope to fallen behaviors.

Catholicism sure seems like a wagon ride where one just follows the one holy Catholic Church and the Pope's leadership. There isn't exactly room for congregational discernment.

[gcdonner]

A friend sent me the following quote from Dietrich Bonhoeffer:

The physical presence of other Christians is a source of incomparable joy and strength to the believer . . . It is true, of course, that what is an unspeakable gift for the lonely individual is easily disregarded and trodden underfoot by those who have the gift every day . . . Among earnest Christians in the Church today there is a growing desire to meet together with other Christians in the rest periods of their work for common life under the Word. Communal life is again being recognized by Christians today as the grace that it is, as the extraordinary, the “roses and lilies” of the Christian life. (Life Together 8–10)....
If somebody asks [a Christian], Where is your salvation, your righteousness? he can never point to himself. He points to the Word of God in Jesus Christ, which assures him of salvation and righteousness. He is as alert as possible to this Word. Because he daily hungers and thirsts for righteousness, he daily desires the redeeming Word . . .
But God has put this Word into the mouth of men in order that it may be communicated to other men. When one person is struck by the Word, he speaks it to others. God has willed that we should seek and find His living Word in the witness of a brother, in the mouth of a man. Therefore, the Christian needs another Christian who speaks God’s Word to him. He needs him again and again when he becomes uncertain and discouraged, for by himself he cannot help himself without belying the truth. He needs his brother man as a bearer and proclaimer of the divine word of salvation. He needs his brother solely because of Jesus Christ. The Christ in his own heart is weaker than the Christ in the word of his brother; his own heart is uncertain; his brother’s is sure. (Life Together, 11–12)

[MaxPC]

A friend sent me the following quote from Dietrich Bonhoeffer:

The physical presence of other Christians is a source of incomparable joy and strength to the believer . . . It is true, of course, that what is an unspeakable gift for the lonely individual is easily disregarded and trodden underfoot by those who have the gift every day . . . Among earnest Christians in the Church today there is a growing desire to meet together with other Christians in the rest periods of their work for common life under the Word. Communal life is again being recognized by Christians today as the grace that it is, as the extraordinary, the “roses and lilies” of the Christian life. (Life Together 8–10)....
If somebody asks [a Christian], Where is your salvation, your righteousness? he can never point to himself. He points to the Word of God in Jesus Christ, which assures him of salvation and righteousness. He is as alert as possible to this Word. Because he daily hungers and thirsts for righteousness, he daily desires the redeeming Word . . .
But God has put this Word into the mouth of men in order that it may be communicated to other men. When one person is struck by the Word, he speaks it to others. God has willed that we should seek and find His living Word in the witness of a brother, in the mouth of a man. Therefore, the Christian needs another Christian who speaks God’s Word to him. He needs him again and again when he becomes uncertain and discouraged, for by himself he cannot help himself without belying the truth. He needs his brother man as a bearer and proclaimer of the divine word of salvation. He needs his brother solely because of Jesus Christ. The Christ in his own heart is weaker than the Christ in the word of his brother; his own heart is uncertain; his brother’s is sure. (Life Together, 11–12)

Interesting quote. Re The bolded portion, what do you think he is saying here? Does he expound and clarify this? What if the disciple is in a bad fellowship situation?

I don't have the source book so I'll depend on your thoughts on this.

My thoughts: In every fellowship there's the full spectrum of disciples from those who go along for the ride; to the dedicated and earnest discerner; to the abusive narcissistic leader who is caught up in his own agenda and doesn't listen to God.

[Bootstrap]

My thoughts: In every fellowship there's the full spectrum of disciples from those who go along for the ride; to the dedicated and earnest discerner; to the abusive narcissistic leader who is caught up in his own agenda and doesn't listen to God.

How does this work in your Catholic churches? I assume that the leaders are mostly chosen by the denomination, with some lay leadership chosen by those leaders. What kinds of discernment does the church engage in? How are everyday Catholic parishioners involved in that process?

[gcdonner]

A friend sent me the following quote from Dietrich Bonhoeffer:

The physical presence of other Christians is a source of incomparable joy and strength to the believer . . . It is true, of course, that what is an unspeakable gift for the lonely individual is easily disregarded and trodden underfoot by those who have the gift every day . . . Among earnest Christians in the Church today there is a growing desire to meet together with other Christians in the rest periods of their work for common life under the Word. Communal life is again being recognized by Christians today as the grace that it is, as the extraordinary, the “roses and lilies” of the Christian life. (Life Together 8–10)....
If somebody asks [a Christian], Where is your salvation, your righteousness? he can never point to himself. He points to the Word of God in Jesus Christ, which assures him of salvation and righteousness. He is as alert as possible to this Word. Because he daily hungers and thirsts for righteousness, he daily desires the redeeming Word . . .
But God has put this Word into the mouth of men in order that it may be communicated to other men. When one person is struck by the Word, he speaks it to others. God has willed that we should seek and find His living Word in the witness of a brother, in the mouth of a man. Therefore, the Christian needs another Christian who speaks God’s Word to him. He needs him again and again when he becomes uncertain and discouraged, for by himself he cannot help himself without belying the truth. He needs his brother man as a bearer and proclaimer of the divine word of salvation. He needs his brother solely because of Jesus Christ. The Christ in his own heart is weaker than the Christ in the word of his brother; his own heart is uncertain; his brother’s is sure. (Life Together, 11–12)

Interesting quote. Re The bolded portion, what do you think he is saying here? Does he expound and clarify this? What if the disciple is in a bad fellowship situation?

I don't have the source book so I'll depend on your thoughts on this.

My thoughts: In every fellowship there's the full spectrum of disciples from those who go along for the ride; to the dedicated and earnest discerner; to the abusive narcissistic leader who is caught up in his own agenda and doesn't listen to God.

In those times when we are unsure of direction or even interpretation, it is good to have a brother to bounce things off of. Many times that person has been my wife when I haven't had a brother close at hand.

[MaxPC]

In those times when we are unsure of direction or even interpretation, it is good to have a brother to bounce things off of. Many times that person has been my wife when I haven't had a brother close at hand.

Amen brother and I thank God for my wife too.

[Bootstrap]

Max - you may have missed this.

My thoughts: In every fellowship there's the full spectrum of disciples from those who go along for the ride; to the dedicated and earnest discerner; to the abusive narcissistic leader who is caught up in his own agenda and doesn't listen to God.

How does this work in your Catholic churches? I assume that the leaders are mostly chosen by the denomination, with some lay leadership chosen by those leaders. What kinds of discernment does the church engage in? How are everyday Catholic parishioners involved in that process?

As a Catholic, how does this kind of submission and mutual discernment work in your churches and in your life?

[Wayne in Maine]

I don't think "collective" interpretation is unspiritual etc. However there are some dangers that need to be pointed out. Might doesn't make right. And just because the majority of a congregation or a majority of that congregation's ministry are feeling "led" a certain direction doesn't always ensure such is actually the case. Dangers of ethnocentrism, group think, tyrannizing the minority, etc all are real and can be fostered in too strong a collective mantra. Additionally, simply put, we must all accept personal responsibility for our actions. That truth entails that we should carefully weigh out in our own minds whether or not a group of folks is headed the right direction or not. Lastly, I wouldn't go so far as to say you couldn't ask additional things, beyond what Jesus and Paul did, however, I think there should be caution in doing so and flexibility for when the context demanding the "rule" changes. And generally a ditch is over there that it is quite simple to slide into if one isn't very careful. (FWIW I have always belonged to a church that has had extra-biblical rules).

The church must be a theocracy. But how can it achieve that by democratic methods any better than by autocratic or oligarchic means? If a group of people really want to assert that God is leading them then they have to be serious in actually listening and hearing the same "voice of God" and more importantly in admitting that they are not, in fact hearing God's voice when their God is speaking disparate and even contradictory messages.

Our personal responsibility in this is bringing our own spirituality in line with God's Spirit. The best guage of that is to measure our lives and worldview with what all of Christendom agrees is the revealed record of God's ministry among us. If a collection of individuals cannot agree with Jesus, Paul, Peter, James and the other apostles, then they can never honestly say that they are being lead by God and are able to discern His will. But if the hearts of those individuals resonate with the Good News of the Kingdom of God, then there is just a chance that they can collectively hear God's singular voice and be truly lead by the Spirit.

In the mean time everyone will do what they think is right in their own eyes, and churches will govern themselves by the will and whims of men or of a man.

[Ernie]

I agree with both JoshBGood and Wayne.

[RZehr]

I firmly believe there is a place for the church to collectively discern the will of God and a need for christians to submit one to another.
Regarding extra biblical rules, I believe there is biblical support for that as well. One example is found in the subject of eating food.

Mark 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? Then in verse 15-23 Jesus is very clear that what we eat does not defile a person.

1 Corinthians 8 we see that there is no sin in the eating of food offered to idols. But there is harm in offending our brother. In 1 Corinthians 10:19-29 this teaching about food/idols/offending others is repeated.

Acts 15 the Jerusalem counsel We see the church coming together and deciding in verse 20 to not eat certain things. And the sent this decision to others that were not present.

Now a dissenter at the time could have pointed to Jesus teaching and insisted that it didn't matter what he ate, and on one level he would be absolutely correct.
But he would be missing the principle of submitting to one another, and missing principle of finding his place in the body. I believe this is an example of the church having authority to decide collectively a practical matter for the good of the body, at the expense of personal freedom. Even though there was clear teaching from Jesus (and acknowledged by Paul) that the thing itself was not sin.

My two bits.