Churches I have been in make efforts to help outsiders comply with church rules. For example, sewing a woman cape dresses, or finding a job for a man who needs to change his job.
I would avoid churches where this isn't the case.
Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively
I think a lot of people like to have an aspect of dualism going on in their lives. The people referred to in the OP (#1) often like a vague, arbitrary gospel that can't be used to require any significant change, vulnerability, or commitment. Many Christians want their "Christian life" and their "regular life"; they often don't want them infringing upon one another.
I think of it as taking hold of the plow and looking back.
Oh, and I think Judas Maccabeus nailed it on the head.
I think of it as taking hold of the plow and looking back.
Oh, and I think Judas Maccabeus nailed it on the head.
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Ponder anew what the Almighty can do
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively
There are two reasons for expecting people to submit.gcdonner wrote: The "We are right, so you should submit to us" mentality is not limited to Mennonite churches or any other denomination, as I have found in my own experiences.
1. "We are right, and what we bind on earth is bound in heaven, so you should submit to whatever we think you should do. In fact, everybody should be doing things the way we think things should be done."
This attitude is found in all kinds of churches and I cannot go along with this way of thinking unless it has to do with submitting to discipline, when their is unrepentant immorality, etc.
2. "We feel that this is how God is leading us as a group and that he is showing us a 'right way for us and our little ones'. Since the scriptures indicate that we should submit to each other and to the Spirit of God collectively, you need to decide whether the Spirit of God is leading us and whether he is leading you to join and submit to this particular group. We understand that God leads people differently in different situations and we can recognize folks as brothers and sisters in Christ who are following the Lord even if they don't do things exactly as we do. If you are submitted to this group, it is fine if you push back on things that you believe are not the way the Spirit wants them to be as long as you don't sow discord and dissension."
This is the concept of submission that I am comfortable with.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively
I concur with your assessment Ernie. I only wish that I had had the opportunity to experience that kind of relationship earlier in my journey. We came close to it in one of our church groups, except for one leader who for some reason had a personal grudge against me. As I have stated before, sadly that man fell away, not only from leadership, but also from grace. It is my prayer that he will be able to find the repentance and healing that he preached so strongly in those days before he stumbled himself.Ernie wrote:There are two reasons for expecting people to submit.gcdonner wrote: The "We are right, so you should submit to us" mentality is not limited to Mennonite churches or any other denomination, as I have found in my own experiences.
1. "We are right, and what we bind on earth is bound in heaven, so you should submit to whatever we think you should do. In fact, everybody should be doing things the way we think things should be done."
This attitude is found in all kinds of churches and I cannot go along with this way of thinking unless it has to do with submitting to discipline, when their is unrepentant immorality, etc.
2. "We feel that this is how God is leading us as a group and that he is showing us a 'right way for us and our little ones'. Since the scriptures indicate that we should submit to each other and to the Spirit of God collectively, you need to decide whether the Spirit of God is leading us and whether he is leading you to join and submit to this particular group. We understand that God leads people differently in different situations and we can recognize folks as brothers and sisters in Christ who are following the Lord even if they don't do things exactly as we do. If you are submitted to this group, it is fine if you push back on things that you believe are not the way the Spirit wants them to be as long as you don't sow discord and dissension."
This is the concept of submission that I am comfortable with.
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Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed
rightly dividing the word of truth.
rightly dividing the word of truth.
Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively
In response to the OP, the rhetoric employed against collective discernment and group application often includes something about how the Jews built a fence around the Torah or the Pharisees added to the law. In contrast, salvation is held to be a spiritual experience attained by faith alone; works may even be viewed with suspicion.
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"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively
JBG,joshuabgood wrote:As for the comparison to children and parents, I don't think it quite the same thing. In the one case you have young, scientifically immature, children who among other things, don't have fully formed prefrontal lobes...and who are not capable even of physical survival on their own.
Would submitting or subjecting oneself to "masters" or "civil leaders" be a better comparison? Or a wife submitting to a husband?
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively
Ernie:
Could you expand a bit on what this might look like, or perhaps offer some examples? Thanks.it is fine if you push back on things that you believe are not the way the Spirit wants them to be as long as you don't sow discord and dissension.
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively
Cmbl, without intending to detract from the truth of your statement, there is still occasionally such a thing as "fencing the Torah" at times among well-meaning Plain folk. The concern is not always groundless.
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively
There is a lot of really good stuff here Josh. I am especially interested in you expanding a bit on the unlined part above. If you are saying what I think you are saying I think it is a really important part of this subject that is often missed and IMO is actually part of the reason this issue is such a big issue in many of our circles.joshuabgood wrote:I don't think "collective" interpretation is unspiritual etc. However there are some dangers that need to be pointed out. Might doesn't make right. And just because the majority of a congregation or a majority of that congregation's ministry are feeling "led" a certain direction doesn't always ensure such is actually the case. Dangers of ethnocentrism, group think, tyrannizing the minority, etc all are real and can be fostered in too strong a collective mantra. Additionally, simply put, we must all accept personal responsibility for our actions. That truth entails that we should carefully weigh out in our own minds whether or not a group of folks is headed the right direction or not. Lastly, I wouldn't go so far as to say you couldn't ask additional things, beyond what Jesus and Paul did, however, I think there should be caution in doing so and flexibility for when the context demanding the "rule" changes. And generally a ditch is over there that it is quite simple to slide into if one isn't very careful. (FWIW I have always belonged to a church that has had extra-biblical rules).
As for the comparison to children and parents, I don't think it quite the same thing. In the one case you have young, scientifically immature, children who among other things, don't have fully formed prefrontal lobes...and who are not capable even of physical survival on their own.
Personally I am fine with asking some questions prior to communion. Seems to make sense to me...I suppose we could discuss what we think the right questions are. I'd be interested in what yours would be? And would they include things like "have you spoken harshly to your husband/wife/children this past week?" With regard to modesty (I am not sure if you mean coverage of clothing or modesty which in my mind are two very distinct, though often conflated, issues), but I would say ask about modesty - which should cover finances, wages, etc...
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Re: Submission and Discerning the Will of God Collectively
The bolded above is where the rubber meets the road in my opinion. Our discipleship is not a wagon ride where we hop on aboard and go along riding with the others, though there are some who think it's just that easy (in every church we find these). Discipleship in obedience to Christ is a daily discernment and conversation with Jesus, which means we listen to God; to our fellowship; and we also wrestle with our own perceptions. The real danger is when we give up and just go along to get along. Complacency is a slippery slope to fallen behaviors.joshuabgood wrote:I don't think "collective" interpretation is unspiritual etc. However there are some dangers that need to be pointed out. Might doesn't make right. And just because the majority of a congregation or a majority of that congregation's ministry are feeling "led" a certain direction doesn't always ensure such is actually the case. Dangers of ethnocentrism, group think, tyrannizing the minority, etc all are real and can be fostered in too strong a collective mantra. Additionally, simply put, we must all accept personal responsibility for our actions. That truth entails that we should carefully weigh out in our own minds whether or not a group of folks is headed the right direction or not. Lastly, I wouldn't go so far as to say you couldn't ask additional things, beyond what Jesus and Paul did, however, I think there should be caution in doing so and flexibility for when the context demanding the "rule" changes. And generally a ditch is over there that it is quite simple to slide into if one isn't very careful. (FWIW I have always belonged to a church that has had extra-biblical rules).
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God