slaves to righteousness

General Christian Theology
Neto
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Re: slaves to righteousness

Post by Neto »

I have been reading through various parts of the Bible recently, going slower than I often do, and reading through all of the notes & comments in my NIV study Bible. (I almost want to call it the OIV, because I have what I suspect is the original version. Copyright dates listed in the front are 1973, 1978, & 1984. I know that the entire Bible did not come out until 1978, when I got my first complete NIV. This one was given to me by my brother-in-law in January of 1987. I know that I’ve heard others read or quote from the “NIV” and it is sometimes significantly different wording. So I can’t say if the newer versions have this same wording.

I know that this thread has been dormant for over a year, but I looked to see if there was already a topic on something pretty close to this, and the closest was this one.

So here is the verse & the study note that got me thinking more about this:

Rom 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Study notes for this verse:
Righteousness – the state of being “in the right” in relation to God.
First I’ll say right up front that my thoughts wandered somewhat from what they say, but the phrase “in relation to God” got me thinking about how “righteousness before God” is related to one’s relationship with God, being in right relationship to God.

James says that Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. In that case, he showed his belief (faith) by his actions – by his willingness to sacrifice his only son by his wife Sarah, Isaac. So, if “righteousness” equals “being in right relationship with God”, then we have God saying “Abraham had confidence in me and obeyed what I told him to do, even though it couldn’t have made any sense to him. By this I know that he is truly in right relationship to me.” In Banawa (Amazonian language in which we did translation work) they say that “We are ‘to God’,” in the same grammatical form as you would say “I am giving this ‘to you’.” This is the way we translated the idea of believing in God – we are to God, or, as we back translated it (back into English for the translation consultant to look over) - “We are oriented toward God”, like being focused on him.

For me, at least, it is so easy to start focusing on “having the right actions”, “doing the right things,” that sort of “obedience” & “faith”. But if righteousness is being in right relationship to God, then the focus is off of those things, and we are, correctly, I believe, focused instead on God himself, on being taken up with him.

What are you all’s thoughts?
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gcdonner
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Re: slaves to righteousness

Post by gcdonner »

Neto wrote:I have been reading through various parts of the Bible recently, going slower than I often do, and reading through all of the notes & comments in my NIV study Bible. (I almost want to call it the OIV, because I have what I suspect is the original version. Copyright dates listed in the front are 1973, 1978, & 1984. I know that the entire Bible did not come out until 1978, when I got my first complete NIV. This one was given to me by my brother-in-law in January of 1987. I know that I’ve heard others read or quote from the “NIV” and it is sometimes significantly different wording. So I can’t say if the newer versions have this same wording.
Wow, I thought the bible was a lot older than that!?
I know that this thread has been dormant for over a year, but I looked to see if there was already a topic on something pretty close to this, and the closest was this one.

So here is the verse & the study note that got me thinking more about this:

Rom 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Study notes for this verse:
Righteousness – the state of being “in the right” in relation to God.
First I’ll say right up front that my thoughts wandered somewhat from what they say, but the phrase “in relation to God” got me thinking about how “righteousness before God” is related to one’s relationship with God, being in right relationship to God.

James says that Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. In that case, he showed his belief (faith) by his actions – by his willingness to sacrifice his only son by his wife Sarah, Isaac. So, if “righteousness” equals “being in right relationship with God”, then we have God saying “Abraham had confidence in me and obeyed what I told him to do, even though it couldn’t have made any sense to him. By this I know that he is truly in right relationship to me.” In Banawa (Amazonian language in which we did translation work) they say that “We are ‘to God’,” in the same grammatical form as you would say “I am giving this ‘to you’.” This is the way we translated the idea of believing in God – we are to God, or, as we back translated it (back into English for the translation consultant to look over) - “We are oriented toward God”, like being focused on him.

For me, at least, it is so easy to start focusing on “having the right actions”, “doing the right things,” that sort of “obedience” & “faith”. But if righteousness is being in right relationship to God, then the focus is off of those things, and we are, correctly, I believe, focused instead on God himself, on being taken up with him.

What are you all’s thoughts?
I like to remember II Cor 5:21, first in the KJV that I use most of the time:
2Co 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (KJV)
Then in one of your versions, the NIrV:
2Co 5:21  Christ didn't have any sin. But God made him become sin for us. So we can be made right with God because of what Christ has done for us. (NIrV)

Our standing before God has NOTHING to do with our righteousness, which of course are as "filthy rags", (KJV, NIV) "poluted rags" (NIrV) (Is 64:6). Our standing before God and our relationship to Him is by His grace alone, however, when His righteousness is imputed to us, we then are expected to act in a corresponding way, so that Paul can say:
Rom 6:13  Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 
14  For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace....
22  But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. (NIV)
Of course I skipped over a lot, but you get the picture. We are to reflect the work that God has done in us. Even the favorite Mennonite passage about grace/works demonstrates this:
Php 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 
13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
 
Jesus, the Son of God, is the author and finisher of our faith, right? (Heb 12:22)
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silentreader
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Re: slaves to righteousness

Post by silentreader »

Neto wrote:I have been reading through various parts of the Bible recently, going slower than I often do, and reading through all of the notes & comments in my NIV study Bible. (I almost want to call it the OIV, because I have what I suspect is the original version. Copyright dates listed in the front are 1973, 1978, & 1984. I know that the entire Bible did not come out until 1978, when I got my first complete NIV. This one was given to me by my brother-in-law in January of 1987. I know that I’ve heard others read or quote from the “NIV” and it is sometimes significantly different wording. So I can’t say if the newer versions have this same wording.

I know that this thread has been dormant for over a year, but I looked to see if there was already a topic on something pretty close to this, and the closest was this one.

So here is the verse & the study note that got me thinking more about this:

Rom 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Study notes for this verse:
Righteousness – the state of being “in the right” in relation to God.
First I’ll say right up front that my thoughts wandered somewhat from what they say, but the phrase “in relation to God” got me thinking about how “righteousness before God” is related to one’s relationship with God, being in right relationship to God.

James says that Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. In that case, he showed his belief (faith) by his actions – by his willingness to sacrifice his only son by his wife Sarah, Isaac. So, if “righteousness” equals “being in right relationship with God”, then we have God saying “Abraham had confidence in me and obeyed what I told him to do, even though it couldn’t have made any sense to him. By this I know that he is truly in right relationship to me.” In Banawa (Amazonian language in which we did translation work) they say that “We are ‘to God’,” in the same grammatical form as you would say “I am giving this ‘to you’.” This is the way we translated the idea of believing in God – we are to God, or, as we back translated it (back into English for the translation consultant to look over) - “We are oriented toward God”, like being focused on him.

For me, at least, it is so easy to start focusing on “having the right actions”, “doing the right things,” that sort of “obedience” & “faith”. But if righteousness is being in right relationship to God, then the focus is off of those things, and we are, correctly, I believe, focused instead on God himself, on being taken up with him.

What are you all’s thoughts?
Interesting to me that the original statement in Genesis 15:6 was how many years before Isaac was even born?
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Sudsy
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Re: slaves to righteousness

Post by Sudsy »

I agree it should be about being taken up with God Himself who is revealed to us in the life of Jesus. Jesus is the revelation of who God is. The Holy Spirit also points us to Jesus. Jesus is our perfect example of how to be in right relationship with God. Scripture says this [bible]John 5,18-23[/bible]
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Neto
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Re: slaves to righteousness

Post by Neto »

gcdonner wrote:Jesus, the Son of God, is the author and finisher of our faith, right? (Heb 12:22)
Yes. He puts us into right relationship with himself. (I'm also reminded of the so-called Parable of the Prodigal Son, which I prefer to call the Parable of the Loving Father. The wanderer - the Lost Son, as I've heard the Amish call him - does nothing to regain his former position, and knows that there is nothing he can do to earn it back, and doesn't even think of asking to be restored. But the father puts him back into relationship with himself.)
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Neto
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Re: slaves to righteousness

Post by Neto »

Here's a bit more to clarify what I was thinking. I neglected to say that I think we too readily think “salvation”, and “going to heaven” when we read about being declared righteous. We concentrate too much on our list of dos and don’ts, our conduct guidelines, and “what must I do to be saved”, and not enough on being in relationship with the Master, Jesus the Chosen and Anointed One of God. The “rich young ruler” asked that question, and Jesus said (Sell all of your goods and give to the poor) and COME BE WITH ME. And the man heard SELL ALL OF YOUR GOODS AND GIVE TO THE POOR, (and come be with me). And he walked away sad, because he was very rich, and that’s where his focus was.

Being in the Kingdom of God is not about our salvation, but about being in a relationship with the King.
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Wade
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Re: slaves to righteousness

Post by Wade »

Neto wrote:Here's a bit more to clarify what I was thinking. I neglected to say that I think we too readily think “salvation”, and “going to heaven” when we read about being declared righteous. We concentrate too much on our list of dos and don’ts, our conduct guidelines, and “what must I do to be saved”, and not enough on being in relationship with the Master, Jesus the Chosen and Anointed One of God. The “rich young ruler” asked that question, and Jesus said (Sell all of your goods and give to the poor) and COME BE WITH ME. And the man heard SELL ALL OF YOUR GOODS AND GIVE TO THE POOR, (and come be with me). And he walked away sad, because he was very rich, and that’s where his focus was.

Being in the Kingdom of God is not about our salvation, but about being in a relationship with the King.
:clap:
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silentreader
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Re: slaves to righteousness

Post by silentreader »

Wade wrote:
Neto wrote:Here's a bit more to clarify what I was thinking. I neglected to say that I think we too readily think “salvation”, and “going to heaven” when we read about being declared righteous. We concentrate too much on our list of dos and don’ts, our conduct guidelines, and “what must I do to be saved”, and not enough on being in relationship with the Master, Jesus the Chosen and Anointed One of God. The “rich young ruler” asked that question, and Jesus said (Sell all of your goods and give to the poor) and COME BE WITH ME. And the man heard SELL ALL OF YOUR GOODS AND GIVE TO THE POOR, (and come be with me). And he walked away sad, because he was very rich, and that’s where his focus was.

Being in the Kingdom of God is not about our salvation, but about being in a relationship with the King.
:clap:
One of the things to remember about the "rich young ruler" passage though, is that the "sell all your goods" admonition did not come up until after the man had proclaimed his own righteousness in his professed total obedience to all the law.
He seems to have had a misconstrued self-sufficiency involving his standing with God as well as his financial situation. Jesus challenged both.
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Hats Off
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Re: slaves to righteousness

Post by Hats Off »

I tend to take a bit of exception to the way we view the rich young ruler as well as the older brother in the story of the prodigal son. We assume they were both self righteous when they may very well have been answering honestly. Obviously neither one was absolutely perfect but I do not see Jesus condemning them as we so often do. I love the last words of the father in the story of the prodigal son "son, you are ever with me and all that i have is yours. We do not see the father judging here - they were both his sons.
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Neto
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Re: slaves to righteousness

Post by Neto »

Hats Off wrote:I tend to take a bit of exception to the way we view the rich young ruler as well as the older brother in the story of the prodigal son. We assume they were both self righteous when they may very well have been answering honestly. Obviously neither one was absolutely perfect but I do not see Jesus condemning them as we so often do. I love the last words of the father in the story of the prodigal son "son, you are ever with me and all that i have is yours. We do not see the father judging here - they were both his sons.
If I'm not mistaken, this comment was made to the older son, not to the "prodigal". He had already received his inheritance, and what was left belonged to his older brother.
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