Hell and GCDonnor.

General Christian Theology
Sunbeam
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Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by Sunbeam »

GCDonnor...Is that your name here, or are you someone else, now?....Either way, you know who you are.
I have a request to make of you.

My son and I were having a discussion of theological nature this morning, and we swerved into the discussion of punishment and the apparent degrees of punishment that will be dealt out to humans in the end, and I said that one thing I really regret losing with Mennodiscuss is that "chart" you put up with verses regarding hell. I also would love if you would hold forth as to why you believe people will not exist there in torment forever. I wanted, at some point to sit down and study out what you had said on my own, and I never got it done.
Would you be able to expound on that here? I would love if you would. Thank you!!
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MaxPC
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by MaxPC »

I'd like to see that chart reprinted here. GC, is it possible for you to re-post that? Sounds like a fascinating study.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Sunbeam wrote:GCDonnor...Is that your name here, or are you someone else, now?....Either way, you know who you are.
I have a request to make of you.

My son and I were having a discussion of theological nature this morning, and we swerved into the discussion of punishment and the apparent degrees of punishment that will be dealt out to humans in the end, and I said that one thing I really regret losing with Mennodiscuss is that "chart" you put up with verses regarding hell. I also would love if you would hold forth as to why you believe people will not exist there in torment forever. I wanted, at some point to sit down and study out what you had said on my own, and I never got it done.
Would you be able to expound on that here? I would love if you would. Thank you!!
If he can't find it, there is a book called "Four views of Hell" that was published in the 90s, editor was a guy named Crockett, who taught at Alliance Theological Seminary. Quite controversial IIRC, as Dr. Crockett took the "Allegorical" view, which was generally not considered acceptable by the vast majority of the rank and file in the denomination.

The view you describe above is called the annihilationist view, and it's principle recent defenders are Clark Pinnock and John Stott. I would personally say this position lacks Biblical support, and is a minority position within Bible believing christianity.

I would love to see Gc's chart as well.

J.M.
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Ernie
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by Ernie »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:and is a minority position within Bible believing christianity.
Most things the "Pilgrim Church" has believed have been a minority position with Bible believing Christians so this is not too concerning to me.
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gcdonner
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by gcdonner »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Sunbeam wrote:GCDonnor...Is that your name here, or are you someone else, now?....Either way, you know who you are.
I have a request to make of you.

My son and I were having a discussion of theological nature this morning, and we swerved into the discussion of punishment and the apparent degrees of punishment that will be dealt out to humans in the end, and I said that one thing I really regret losing with Mennodiscuss is that "chart" you put up with verses regarding hell. I also would love if you would hold forth as to why you believe people will not exist there in torment forever. I wanted, at some point to sit down and study out what you had said on my own, and I never got it done.
Would you be able to expound on that here? I would love if you would. Thank you!!
If he can't find it, there is a book called "Four views of Hell" that was published in the 90s, editor was a guy named Crockett, who taught at Alliance Theological Seminary. Quite controversial IIRC, as Dr. Crockett took the "Allegorical" view, which was generally not considered acceptable by the vast majority of the rank and file in the denomination.

The view you describe above is called the annihilationist view, and it's principle recent defenders are Clark Pinnock and John Stott. I would personally say this position lacks Biblical support, and is a minority position within Bible believing christianity.

I would love to see Gc's chart as well.

J.M.
I leave that opinion to you to determine. My "chart" is strictly scripture, with no commentary, however, I will be happy to supply commentary in another post, as requested by Sunbeam.
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Sunbeam
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by Sunbeam »

Thank you!

:clap:
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gcdonner
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by gcdonner »

Image
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gcdonner
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by gcdonner »

Later today, Lord willing, I will post a listing of the relevant passages that are cited by those who support eternal torment, and then we can honestly discuss the ramifications of these concepts.
Just as a fair warning, much of this content, both for and against, is posited in passages that are highly apocalyptic, which means that the imagery is not intended to be taken literally, but rather to instill the highest regard for the principles being portrayed.
Here is a brief illustration of apocalyptic imagery from Is 13:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. 
9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 
10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 
11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 
12  I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 
13  Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger
.

Here in the same chapter is the interpretation of the imagery:
Isa 13:17  Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. 
18  Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children. 
19  And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 
20  It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
Please note that it is the Medes who accomplish God's purpose in this instance, and are seen as fulfilling the "day of the LORD".
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gcdonner
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by gcdonner »

Here is a list of NT references to eternal torment, everlasting death, the second death and so forth. I'm not sure that it is exhaustive, but it is the common passages that are used to support the idea of everlasting, conscious torment after physical death.

Image

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gcdonner
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by gcdonner »

This is a list of questions for the seeker to ask themself and answer with scripture. I hope it will be helpful to someone.
1. Where in scripture do we find that man has an 'immortal soul'?
2. Who does scripture say is immortal? I Tim. 1:17; 6:15,16 ; Jn 5:26
3. How do we get immortality? Rms 2:7; I Cor 15:53,54
4. What does scripture say the end is of the"... way that seemeth right unto a man..."? Prov. 16:25
5. What is the opposite of eternal life according to scripture? Jn 3:16
6. What does scripture say of "the soul that sinneth..."? Ezek. 18:4,20
7. If the first death is physical, then what is the second death?
8. What is death, is it the cessation of life?
9. Because the fire of torment is eternal does it mean the souls that are in it are immortal and eternal, or does it mean there is no escape and no return?
10. If one ceases to exist, is the cessation everlasting or only temporary?
11. What is the definition of the word perish, or the word consume, or utterly destroy?
12. If death and hell [hades, the grave, literally] are cast into the lake of fire, and that constitutes the second death, what does that say about the nature of the lake of fire, or the substance (or lack thereof) of the flames?
13. What is the opposite of LIFE?
14. Does any of this give you pause to consider what scripture may actually teach?
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