Hell and GCDonnor.

General Christian Theology
Sunbeam
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by Sunbeam »

Just looking over those Scriptures you posted, the one in Revelation 14 is the only one that would specifically seem to indicate that people themselves, those who worship the beast and take his mark in their forehead or hand, will burn forever...."the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever."
Perhaps I failed to notice another verse that says so.
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gcdonner
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by gcdonner »

Sunbeam wrote:Just looking over those Scriptures you posted, the one in Revelation 14 is the only one that would specifically seem to indicate that people themselves, those who worship the beast and take his mark in their forehead or hand, will burn forever...."the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever."
Perhaps I failed to notice another verse that says so.
Remember that it is not their personal torment that lasts forever, else Jesus and the angels would be standing over them for eternity and watching the torment. It is only the smoke of their torment that rises forever. It is the same metaphor as used for the city of Sodom. The end result is permanent, there is no turning back once case into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

The first death is physical, the second is spiritual. We cease to live physically first and then we will either continue with eternal life or eternal damnation, which is annihilation with NO redemption.

It does seem obvious to me from this passage in particular, that there will be a period of torment which is witnessed by the Lamb and the angels. No where do I find that they will stand guard over sinners for eternity. What kind of eternity would that be for Christ? I expect it will be difficult enough for whatever period of time is set.

My personal opinion is that the period of time will be according to the sins of the person on earth and the grossness of their sin. Our God is a God of justice after all.
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Josh
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by Josh »

I've always struggled to understand how a second death is actually an eternal life, albeit one with an uncomfortable thermostat setting.
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by gcdonner »

Josh wrote:I've always struggled to understand how a second death is actually an eternal life, albeit one with an uncomfortable thermostat setting.
Immortality of the soul is not from scripture but from Plato, but was embraced by many Gentiles of the 2nd century. This was propounded in Plato's Phaedo, which is ostensibly a record of the death of Socrates and his explanations of the afterlife including immortality of the soul to support his theories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedo

Scripture plainly states:
1Ti 6:15  Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 
1Ti 6:16  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 
God's gift to us in eternal life only if we follow his son, Jesus. Otherwise we are subject to the second death.
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Paul
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by Paul »

Reading this discussion reminded me of the following verses:

Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Also, the OT passage Jesus is alluding to:

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

I think these verses do speak of eternal torment, in a place where "their worm won't die". I think the verses that speak of the immortality of Jesus Christ are speaking of the Divine life He has in Himself, of which we may become partakers by faith in Him, He is no created being like us but the eternal Son. But that doesn't exclude the everlasting nature of the second death, which isn't considered as "immortality" but a perpetual death as the righteous punishment for our sins.

We might think light of sin, and think eternity to be way too hard a punishment, but if you consider the eternal Holy God we have sinned against, it is only just that we will have to suffer eternally as a consequence. That is also the reason why only Jesus Christ, being the eternal Son of God, was able to take away our sins and provide us with eternal life. He alone was able to bear the weight of Gods eternal wrath, because He is eternal Himself.

These words of our Lord Himself I believe confirm this aswell:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by Josh »

This is an example of where the KJV is not a very literal translation. "Cast into The Valley of Hinnom" is what the text says, which early church tradition eventually shaped into an allegory of hell.
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by gcdonner »

Paul wrote:Reading this discussion reminded me of the following verses:

Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Also, the OT passage Jesus is alluding to:

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

I think these verses do speak of eternal torment, in a place where "their worm won't die". I think the verses that speak of the immortality of Jesus Christ are speaking of the Divine life He has in Himself, of which we may become partakers by faith in Him, He is no created being like us but the eternal Son. But that doesn't exclude the everlasting nature of the second death, which isn't considered as "immortality" but a perpetual death as the righteous punishment for our sins.

We might think light of sin, and think eternity to be way too hard a punishment, but if you consider the eternal Holy God we have sinned against, it is only just that we will have to suffer eternally as a consequence. That is also the reason why only Jesus Christ, being the eternal Son of God, was able to take away our sins and provide us with eternal life. He alone was able to bear the weight of Gods eternal wrath, because He is eternal Himself.

These words of our Lord Himself I believe confirm this aswell:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
"Perpetual death". You said it! There is no life, no consciousness, nothing. If you were to have seen the valley of Hinnon that Josh referred to, the worms were always there and the fire was not quenched because it was continually being fed, however everything there was being consumed. The only reference we find in scripture of something burning, but not being consumed is the bush that Moses saw when he approached the holy place that God was visiting in.

Scripture plainly says, "Our God is a consuming fire", it does NOT say, our God is a tormenting fire. The concept of eternal torment is contrary to the just nature of God.

It seems strange to me that people can read the apocalyptic passages and make them into literal interpretations, yet when they read a straight forward statement, they want to ignore it.

It is called the second death for a good reason, and the antithesis of it is second or eternal life. One is the ceasing of life, the other is the continuation of life in perpetuity and according to Jesus, it is life more abundantly.

Tradition shouldn't trump truth.
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by MaxPC »

gcdonner wrote:
Paul wrote:Reading this discussion reminded me of the following verses:

Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Also, the OT passage Jesus is alluding to:

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

I think these verses do speak of eternal torment, in a place where "their worm won't die". I think the verses that speak of the immortality of Jesus Christ are speaking of the Divine life He has in Himself, of which we may become partakers by faith in Him, He is no created being like us but the eternal Son. But that doesn't exclude the everlasting nature of the second death, which isn't considered as "immortality" but a perpetual death as the righteous punishment for our sins.

We might think light of sin, and think eternity to be way too hard a punishment, but if you consider the eternal Holy God we have sinned against, it is only just that we will have to suffer eternally as a consequence. That is also the reason why only Jesus Christ, being the eternal Son of God, was able to take away our sins and provide us with eternal life. He alone was able to bear the weight of Gods eternal wrath, because He is eternal Himself.

These words of our Lord Himself I believe confirm this aswell:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
"Perpetual death". You said it! There is no life, no consciousness, nothing. If you were to have seen the valley of Hinnon that Josh referred to, the worms were always there and the fire was not quenched because it was continually being fed, however everything there was being consumed. The only reference we find in scripture of something burning, but not being consumed is the bush that Moses saw when he approached the holy place that God was visiting in.

Scripture plainly says, "Our God is a consuming fire", it does NOT say, our God is a tormenting fire. The concept of eternal torment is contrary to the just nature of God.

It seems strange to me that people can read the apocalyptic passages and make them into literal interpretations, yet when they read a straight forward statement, they want to ignore it.

It is called the second death for a good reason, and the antithesis of it is second or eternal life. One is the ceasing of life, the other is the continuation of life in perpetuity and according to Jesus, it is life more abundantly.

Tradition shouldn't trump truth.
Re bolded above: In my opinion that's human nature: "selective hearing" or in this case "selective reading". :lol:
Re "Tradition shouldn't trump truth" I agree; only we would say "tradition shouldn't trump Truth". :D
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Josh
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by Josh »

Tradition certainly shouldn't trump truth.

That's why the following Catholic (and evangelical) beliefs are ones I think aren't really supported by scripture:

- "The second death" actually meaning eternal life - just with the thermostat set uncomfortably high

- "The Valley of Himmon" actually means the concept of hell invented centuries later

- The resurrection of the wicked to judgment actually means they were alive all along, just in a rather uncomfortable place. But then they'll be judged, and then sent straight back to hell. Not sure what the purpose of that is at all.

- The resurrection of the righteous to life is not too different from the resurrection of the wicked, since both will live eternally.

Jesus talked a lot about being in or out of his kingdom. I think it's very obvious that some people won't want to be at the wedding feast. They have worldly concerns, so they decide not to go. Some people don't want to live like kingdom people. They'd rather kill their enemies, pursue wealth, and so on. The invitation into the kingdom is open to anyone, but nobody is forced in.

The promise of eternal life is for people in Jesus' kingdom. I think it's okay to believe in an eternal hell, but I don't think it's a good core tenet of dogma. I personally take an open position on it.
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by lesterb »

Josh wrote:This is an example of where the KJV is not a very literal translation. "Cast into The Valley of Hinnom" is what the text says, which early church tradition eventually shaped into an allegory of hell.
Hmm. Every translation I checked either said eternal punishment or something similar.

I'm not a Greek scholar, but RWP says,
Eternal punishment (kolasin aiōnion). The word kolasin comes from kolazō, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between mōria (vengeance) and kolasis. But the same adjective aiōnios is used with kolasin and zōēn. If by etymology we limit the scope of kolasin, we may likewise have only age-long zōēn. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one’s mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word aiōnios (from aiōn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have “ages of ages” (aiōnes tōn aiōnōn).
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