Hell and GCDonnor.

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Josh
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by Josh »

Not believing in conscious eternal torment is not the same as universalism. Annihilationism is anther option.
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by gcdonner »

lesterb wrote:
Josh wrote:This is an example of where the KJV is not a very literal translation. "Cast into The Valley of Hinnom" is what the text says, which early church tradition eventually shaped into an allegory of hell.
Hmm. Every translation I checked either said eternal punishment or something similar.

I'm not a Greek scholar, but RWP says,
Eternal punishment (kolasin aiōnion). The word kolasin comes from kolazō, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between mōria (vengeance) and kolasis. But the same adjective aiōnios is used with kolasin and zōēn. If by etymology we limit the scope of kolasin, we may likewise have only age-long zōēn. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one’s mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word aiōnios (from aiōn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have “ages of ages” (aiōnes tōn aiōnōn).
I have no problem with everlasting punishment, which is death without any further resurrection or option. It is final, the penalty is forever. What this passage does not say is everlasting conscious torment. It is only read that way because to one passage that does speak of torment in a similar way, that being Revelation 14:11, and it is not spoken of as universal judgment, but only of those who worship the beast and take his mark. And also the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (some see this as a statement of actual fact, not a parable) where the rich man is in a place of torment (Lk 16:28), but we fail to remember that this story is told, whether literal or parable, is before the resurrection of Christ and do we really believe that we will remain in the bosom of Abraham for all eternity whilst observing those in torment across a great gulf between?

These are highly symbolic and parabolic passages, in both cases and shouldn't be used as the basis for doctrinal belief without some corroborating evidence from scripture.

In the Rev 14 passage, it can be argued that the smoke ascends forever, just as the picture is implied from the use of the term "hell" that is translated from hinnom which is an allusion to the valley outside of Jerusalem that was used as a dump and at times a place of child sacrifice. The fires of a dump are constantly burning, but the contents are reduced to ashes, even while the worms continue to feast on the carcasses around the edges.

I suggest another look at the listing of scriptures that I gave relative to everlasting fire. BTW, there are countless more passages that have to do with consuming than there are that have to do with torment.

It would take several pages to post the word study that I did on that very word, consume, when I was studying this issue for myself. I would recommend it for someone who really wants to get a feel for the way scripture uses the word itself and how it would interpret itself in light of it's consistent use. Similarly, a word study of "torment" is valuable, though it takes much less time and space.

I was brought up on eternal torment in a fiery hell/ lake of fire. But study of scripture has changed my view of the subject.

I personally believe that there is a time of punishment that is consistent with the kind of life that a person lived here on this earth, with the just rewards of sin after which the person is consigned to the lake of fire.

Is the lake of fire a literal place or is it another image?

Think about it!?
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by lesterb »

Once it's over, it's done, not? Once you are consumed you are no longer being punished. When the spanking is done, it's over.
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

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lesterb wrote:Once it's over, it's done, not? Once you are consumed you are no longer being punished. When the spanking is done, it's over.
How long do you spank your children? Until the end of their life?

In one sense we are all the children of God, are we not? The disobedient ones are punished, the obedient are rewarded. It is quite simple really, sensible and biblical.

The punishment is the opposite of the reward. The reward is eternal life, the punishment is death.
God is just and punishes according the the sins. The punishment will last as long as the life and then comes the end, which is the second death, not another life of torment for eternity.

I can't prove it with proof texts, but in my estimate 70 years of sin, would be 70 years of continuous punishment???
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by Paul »

gcdonner wrote: "Perpetual death". You said it! There is no life, no consciousness, nothing. If you were to have seen the valley of Hinnon that Josh referred to, the worms were always there and the fire was not quenched because it was continually being fed, however everything there was being consumed. The only reference we find in scripture of something burning, but not being consumed is the bush that Moses saw when he approached the holy place that God was visiting in.

Scripture plainly says, "Our God is a consuming fire", it does NOT say, our God is a tormenting fire. The concept of eternal torment is contrary to the just nature of God.

It seems strange to me that people can read the apocalyptic passages and make them into literal interpretations, yet when they read a straight forward statement, they want to ignore it.

It is called the second death for a good reason, and the antithesis of it is second or eternal life. One is the ceasing of life, the other is the continuation of life in perpetuity and according to Jesus, it is life more abundantly.

Tradition shouldn't trump truth.
Well just because death in this life means ceasing to exist, doesn't mean the spiritual equivalent of the second death has to be the same. I've seen the argument of "gehenna" being a trash dump outside of Jerusalem where the worm doesn't die in the 1000 years of Christs reign on the earth. Yet gehenna - the valley of Hinnom - had simply become a Jewish analogue for hell, the place of punishment for the ungodly. And it doesn't make much sense to me that Christ warns about this place to unbelievers, will they be ressurected and thrown in there in the 1000 years? And how come the worm doesn't die in a physical, earthly fire? It doesn't say there will always be plenthy of worms around, it says that they won't die. To limit the meaning to the physical "gehenna" doesn't make sense in the context which our Lord used it, and I think it is simply an exercise to make the Bible say whatever fits your own views to insist that this is the meaning.

Often under the guise of word studies and knowledge of the greek and hebrew, the Bible isn't simply read plainly anymore but twisted in it's meaning to fit a certain theological conviction. Just like the universalist all-favorite springboard to deny eternal torment, the greek word "aionian" or "age-enduring", is being limited in it's full scope of meaning and context (which includes Gods eternality for example) and thus abused to fit their theology. But if you study up on the word and the context, sometimes it is talking about a limited duration of time, but often it's talking about eternity as an unlimited duration of time.

Also eternal torment is not contrary at all to the just nature of God. If God is a just Judge, and if He is good, he must see to it that criminals get punished according to the Law right? He cannot just let people like Hitler or Stalin get off with annihilation, that's not much of a punishment is it? They have caused alot of suffering for many people, it is only just that they should suffer for their crimes. Likewise we are all criminals in Gods sight, though we might not commit such great sins as Stalin or Hitler, the Bible says that all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire. Nobody will be able to escape it except for those that are in Jesus Christ. And really, however horrible it is, it isn't unjust of God to punish us thus and it isn't a temporal experience.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

As I have said before, we see sin from our limited perspective - we compare ourselves to other humans - and we often think small of it because we fail to see the Holy God that gave us life, against we primarily commit those sins. But if you reckon that even the smallest sin is committed against an Eternal, Holy and Righteous God, so the just punishment is an eternal conscious punishment. Just like a crime against the president of the US is likely to be punished more severely than that against any random person, and God is infinitely above us and He is even the very giver of our life Who we have offended and Whose Holy Law we have broken.
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by RZehr »

Regarding the justness of eternal punishment, it may be helpful to remember that hell was not originally designed for us. It was actually "prepared for the devil and his angels" Mat. 25:41.
And so if we live like devils, then why would we not get the same punishment?
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by gcdonner »

Paul wrote:
gcdonner wrote: "Perpetual death". You said it! There is no life, no consciousness, nothing. If you were to have seen the valley of Hinnon that Josh referred to, the worms were always there and the fire was not quenched because it was continually being fed, however everything there was being consumed. The only reference we find in scripture of something burning, but not being consumed is the bush that Moses saw when he approached the holy place that God was visiting in.

Scripture plainly says, "Our God is a consuming fire", it does NOT say, our God is a tormenting fire. The concept of eternal torment is contrary to the just nature of God.

It seems strange to me that people can read the apocalyptic passages and make them into literal interpretations, yet when they read a straight forward statement, they want to ignore it.

It is called the second death for a good reason, and the antithesis of it is second or eternal life. One is the ceasing of life, the other is the continuation of life in perpetuity and according to Jesus, it is life more abundantly.

Tradition shouldn't trump truth.
Well just because death in this life means ceasing to exist, doesn't mean the spiritual equivalent of the second death has to be the same. I've seen the argument of "gehenna" being a trash dump outside of Jerusalem where the worm doesn't die in the 1000 years of Christs reign on the earth. Yet gehenna - the valley of Hinnom - had simply become a Jewish analogue for hell, the place of punishment for the ungodly. And it doesn't make much sense to me that Christ warns about this place to unbelievers, will they be ressurected and thrown in there in the 1000 years? And how come the worm doesn't die in a physical, earthly fire? It doesn't say there will always be plenthy of worms around, it says that they won't die. To limit the meaning to the physical "gehenna" doesn't make sense in the context which our Lord used it, and I think it is simply an exercise to make the Bible say whatever fits your own views to insist that this is the meaning.

Often under the guise of word studies and knowledge of the greek and hebrew, the Bible isn't simply read plainly anymore but twisted in it's meaning to fit a certain theological conviction. Just like the universalist all-favorite springboard to deny eternal torment, the greek word "aionian" or "age-enduring", is being limited in it's full scope of meaning and context (which includes Gods eternality for example) and thus abused to fit their theology. But if you study up on the word and the context, sometimes it is talking about a limited duration of time, but often it's talking about eternity as an unlimited duration of time.

Also eternal torment is not contrary at all to the just nature of God. If God is a just Judge, and if He is good, he must see to it that criminals get punished according to the Law right? He cannot just let people like Hitler or Stalin get off with annihilation, that's not much of a punishment is it? They have caused alot of suffering for many people, it is only just that they should suffer for their crimes. Likewise we are all criminals in Gods sight, though we might not commit such great sins as Stalin or Hitler, the Bible says that all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire. Nobody will be able to escape it except for those that are in Jesus Christ. And really, however horrible it is, it isn't unjust of God to punish us thus and it isn't a temporal experience.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

As I have said before, we see sin from our limited perspective - we compare ourselves to other humans - and we often think small of it because we fail to see the Holy God that gave us life, against we primarily commit those sins. But if you reckon that even the smallest sin is committed against an Eternal, Holy and Righteous God, so the just punishment is an eternal conscious punishment. Just like a crime against the president of the US is likely to be punished more severely than that against any random person, and God is infinitely above us and He is even the very giver of our life Who we have offended and Whose Holy Law we have broken.
I agree that gehenna is only a symbolic representation, but you miss the point.
Heb 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire. 
Scripture declares it not me. ALL of the passages that you could point to to support eternal torment are in apocalyptic passages. So you want to build a doctrine on symbolic passages and ignore the plain statements?
I did state that I believe there will be an appropriate period of punishment for those who are unrepentant, didn't I?
You may cling to your Platonian view of immortality of the soul, but I prefer to cling to the clear statements of scripture rather than tradition. I expect you would like Dante's "Inferno".

Where do you think we get all these ideas of fairness and justness? I believe that it is from God himself.
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by gcdonner »

RZehr wrote:Regarding the justness of eternal punishment, it may be helpful to remember that hell was not originally designed for us. It was actually "prepared for the devil and his angels" Mat. 25:41.
And so if we live like devils, then why would we not get the same punishment?
And where does it say that the devil and his angels will be tormented forever and a day? All of these passages are highly apocalyptic in their composition, which means they use exaggerated descriptions to make their point.
I find it strange that those who are compelled to explain these things in literal terms then turn around and dismiss the clearly straight forward statements by redefining the meanings of words.
Jesus employed apocalyptic thought throughout his ministry, since he and his contemporaries were very familiar with it and understood it for what it was.
In the same passage, do you believe that there are literally goats on his left hand and sheep on his right hand or are they symbolic?
Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. 
Please note the obvious (to me anyway) comparison being made here. The opposite of death is life and visa versa. Death is the cessation of life and life is the overcoming of death and continuation. The concepts of life and death are created by God, with implicit meanings, yet when used in highly rhetorical passages some want to construe them to mean something entirely different.

What part of
Heb 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire.  
don't you understand?
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by RZehr »

gcdonner wrote:
RZehr wrote:Regarding the justness of eternal punishment, it may be helpful to remember that hell was not originally designed for us. It was actually "prepared for the devil and his angels" Mat. 25:41.
And so if we live like devils, then why would we not get the same punishment?
And where does it say that the devil and his angels will be tormented forever and a day? All of these passages are highly apocalyptic in their composition, which means they use exaggerated descriptions to make their point.
I find it strange that those who are compelled to explain these things in literal terms then turn around and dismiss the clearly straight forward statements by redefining the meanings of words.
Jesus employed apocalyptic thought throughout his ministry, since he and his contemporaries were very familiar with it and understood it for what it was.
In the same passage, do you believe that there are literally goats on his left hand and sheep on his right hand or are they symbolic?
Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. 
Please note the obvious (to me anyway) comparison being made here. The opposite of death is life and visa versa. Death is the cessation of life and life is the overcoming of death and continuation. The concepts of life and death are created by God, with implicit meanings, yet when used in highly rhetorical passages some want to construe them to mean something entirely different.

What part of
Heb 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire.  
don't you understand?
Because it says "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"
How is a fire everlasting without everlasting fuel?
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Re: Hell and GCDonnor.

Post by Josh »

RZehr wrote:Regarding the justness of eternal punishment, it may be helpful to remember that hell was not originally designed for us. It was actually "prepared for the devil and his angels" Mat. 25:41.
And so if we live like devils, then why would we not get the same punishment?
I agree we might get the same punishment - I just don't see that human beings who go to hell end up with eternal life.
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