Ligonier Conference Lancaster PA 2016

[joshuabgood]

Well, Linford and Dwight would probably be proud of me. I have attended this evening, and will be attending tomorrow, the conference and hearing Al Mohler (a direct descendent of the Mohlers from Mohler Church Rd in Ephrata), Derek Thomas, Stephen Nichols and RC Sproul. The conference is to celebrate the 499th anniversary of the beginning of the reformation (Luther nailing the 95 Theses to Wittenburg Chapel).

Derek had a very interesting talk (unusual and deliberative slow delivery style that I think made his presentation engaging in its own way) on Isaiah (he pronounced it "Is 'i' ah) and "Arise and shine for the light is come." That light being Martin Luther and the reformers.

In his talk tonight, Al directly mentioned the the Ephrata and Anabaptist connection as his patrimonial lineage and then acknowledged the reformation and Luther as his theological lineage. He noted though that the reformation folks need the spirit of the Anabaptists with the theology of the reformers.

He had a very interesting talk. I learned somethings about the Catholics at the time (the Borgia's and Medici's) as well as a few things about Luther.

At the end of it though I remained quite unconvinced of several of his propositions. One being, the initial suggestion that Anabaptists would be better off with Lutheran theology. I don't think he presented that compelling a view of Lutheran theology and the "five solas".

Secondly, he just plain ignored the rather gratuitous flaws of Luther, though he did a quite rigorous job pointing them out in the Catholic church of that time and how Luther was "the dawn of a new day." In my view, one can criticize the Catholic church for sentencing Luther to death, burning Wycliffe's bones, etc...but Luther's own actions in killing the saints should also be just as carefully inspected. They weren't. At all.

He was also a little more critical of Pope Francis' move to attend the Lutheran celebration at Wittenburg next year, than I would have been. It seems this move by the Pope to reach out to the reformers children fits in with Pope Francis' general moves towards good will. Mohler interpreted it as the Catholics just denying that they ever had a problem and that "their 'bad' theology" still needs correction by Luther.

He also noted that in his view the way to correct moral and other failures in the church is through "right" theology. Moral problems are fixed through theological solutions he said, as almost a direct quote. Unfortunately the fruit of the Lutheran church, (and greater protestant movement) doesn't bear witness to this assumption, I fear.

And last but not least - you get 10% off the price of admission if you are "in the service" or are the wife (and presumably husband) of one in the service.

And very lastly - somewhat interestingly - there were almost no other Menno's in the house. Another brother from Cornerstone and I, and I saw maybe 2 other people of the Menno angle. Not near as many as I saw at the Global Leadership Summit for example...

[temporal1]

This?
http://www.ligonier.org/events/

Can-O-Worms
http://www.thewormfarm.net/store/produc ... e-capacity

[joshuabgood]

Yes.

[undershepherd]

I don't know if I am proud of you or not.

Derek is a great preacher and quite fascinating to listen to. Al Mohler is, ---- well he is Al Mohler. But these guys are pretty hard core Reformationists and when they get to going on the importance of the reformation certain figures in the reformation and defending an ongoing reformation - they have blinders on in my opinion. Not that they don't see some things correctly - they do, but they miss a whole bunch of other things that are also very important.

It gets a little tiring after a short while. I have attended one Ligonier conference in my time and probably won't go back.

[temporal1]

I don't know if I am proud of you or not.

Derek is a great preacher and quite fascinating to listen to. Al Mohler is, ---- well he is Al Mohler.
But these guys are pretty hard core Reformationists and when they get to going on the importance of the reformation certain figures in the reformation and defending an ongoing reformation - they have blinders on in my opinion.

Not that they don't see some things correctly - they do, but they miss a whole bunch of other things that are also very important.

It gets a little tiring after a short while. I have attended one Ligonier conference in my time and probably won't go back.

our family benefited for years from an insightful, spiritual Lutheran pastor; getting out in the world, and learning how he did not represent all, has been a painful shock (of years.)

i suppose, if we could have only 1 take-away from our pastor, he would want it to be the depth of his belief that, while he respected Martin Luther as a man, he would not confuse him with Jesus Christ, God. he was convinced ML would be "rolling over in his grave" at the thought this would ever be confused, or that a church would be named after him!

these were "meaty" and important words for us then, new in faith.
thankfully, we listened. more thankfully, we have many important memories from his leadership.
he has passed away, how i wish i could visit+discuss with him now.
i treasure every memory.

so, if this is one's starting place, "only one God," conferences like these can be (awful.)

the point of ML's Theses was to return to Jesus Christ, not to turn to ML.
in similar way Menno Simons did not want to be confused with God (i learned on MD.)

as with Mennonites, and Catholics, Lutherans/Protestants are not all on the same page in their faith.

the largest conferences-groups under the different umbrella names (we humans use) are most visible; as scriptures instruct, it's not about the big numbers, but about Light.

Light can seem evasive, i surely understand this! but, with the Holy Spirit, it is not. it's where our treasures need to be. the one and only place they will not simply+quickly fade to dust.

[Josh]

He noted though that the reformation folks need the spirit of the Anabaptists with the theology of the reformers.

Dr Mohler should be delighted with many present-day Anabaptists, then, as we have done our best to adopt a magisterial-era Lutheran view of salvation into our Anabaptist culture. Our missions and evangelism have plenty of spirit and fire - and we are comfortably preaching a plan of salvation Luther himself would have been comfortable with.

I saw him speak about a year and a half ago.
One thing he said was that we have lost the culture wars as Christians and need to get used to being a minority. He also said we should start living a "set apart" lifestyle and accept we will have to be a peculiar people.

If he and those who think similar to him can cross the bridge into accepting things I feel are rather fundamental, like nonresistance, non-accumulation, and a simple view of the good news, I think we could see many people with a Reformed background and the zeal of the Anabaptists.

[PeterG]

He also noted that in his view the way to correct moral and other failures in the church is through "right" theology. Moral problems are fixed through theological solutions he said, as almost a direct quote. Unfortunately the fruit of the Lutheran church, (and greater protestant movement) doesn't bear witness to this assumption, I fear.

On the other hand, one might argue that the fruits of Lutheranism/Protestantism strongly support Mohler's point on the relationship between morality and theology while undermining his evaluation of Lutheran theology.

Interesting observations, JBG.

[EdselB]

Well, Linford and Dwight would probably be proud of me. I have attended this evening, and will be attending tomorrow, the conference and hearing Al Mohler (a direct descendent of the Mohlers from Mohler Church Rd in Ephrata), Derek Thomas, Stephen Nichols and RC Sproul. The conference is to celebrate the 499th anniversary of the beginning of the reformation (Luther nailing the 95 Theses to Wittenburg Chapel).

Derek had a very interesting talk (unusual and deliberative slow delivery style that I think made his presentation engaging in its own way) on Isaiah (he pronounced it "Is 'i' ah) and "Arise and shine for the light is come." That light being Martin Luther and the reformers....

I heard Dereck Thomas speak on John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress at the Banner of Truth Conference held at Elizabethtown College this summer (The EC venue was purely a rental arrangement). Since it was literally a stone throw away from where I work, I went over for a bit. The speakers had all these nice British accents--the Scots were espcially good. There something about saying "God" with a Scottish accent. Actually the experience left me feeling a bit cold. In his talk Thomas warned against "preparationism." I was again impressed by the mental gymnastics Calvinists have to go through because of their belief in election and predestination.

[Southerner]

Derek Thomas (still does, I think), and Sinclair Ferguson actually preached about 30-35 minutes south of where I sit now. I've long listened to Reformed (capital "R") podcasts, some preaching, and read some of the books, and that includes a lot of Ligonier stuff. Completely with some of you on Scottish pronouncement of key theological terms.

Mohler, and moreso Russell Moore, have been a couple of voices I've appreciated as an SBC'er. Moore sounds at times a little more towards the Anabaptist spectrum even though he remains active in politics for the ERLC. They're all Calvinists of varying degrees - with Moore being the least IMHO - but I appreciate some aspects of their theology. For me, it centers around their approach to God. If this makes any sense, I would submit that (and this is true of most Calvinists even if I disagree with the journey's end result) the Reformed/Calvinist camp does have a healthy focus on God - what He's said, thinks, shows, etc. RC Sproul (of Ligonier) likes to go on about theology versus anthropology and I do think there is a lot of truth to this. Even in SBC circles - and I "r" one as it stands - much of worship centers around how it makes me feel versus what it means for God. As Sproul would say, it's anthropocentric.

It sounds as though I would agree with Mohler, like you, to a large degree with some reservations. This is one of those "both, and" answers. I just finished a (secular) work on the Reformation, by Diarmaid Mccullough shockingly titled The Reformation.

Mccullough gets a little lost in the many weeds, but what struck me about the whole conglomeration of events is the level of interplay between the various strands. (And, in the author's defense, there were numerous power plays, changes, and other events ongoing.) The few times I heard of Anbaptism growing up (history geek) was often about "Munster!" or anachronistic "Communism!" However, after actually beginning to read Anabaptist history written by Anabaptists or sympathetic figures shows it's a lot more complex than that. Where I will often argue with Reformed brethren is that much of later Presbyterian and especially Baptist did draw on Anabaptist thought in the whole separation of church and state. Like it or not, that strand permeates a ton of modern Christianity, and I would argue that's a very good thing.

The other thing that struck me was the general obsession with the last days, but that's another thread for another day. Left Behind apparently could have flourished then, too, with a cult following...

Anyway, I agree with your assessment about Luther, as Carl Trueman pointed out a while back (link: https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/first ... ating-what). To me, though, the criticism of an over-rosy picture is easily made to almost anyone. We all have our heroes, and we tend to idolize them or ignore the bad stuff. Luther himself was quite drawn to the power of the state and probably would be the equivalent of a theocratist that some might label a big gubment liberal. I'm absolutely convinced John Calvin would have had a blog and Twitter account with lots of followers. They also lived in the context of their times when this whole idea of forced conversions was a little more popular and acceptable.

However, without Lutherans and Calvinists, the way may not have been paved either. I believe it was Jan Hus (John Huss) whose name (Hus) was literally "goose" and then when burned at the steak he uttered a famous quote along the lines of this:

Executioner: "Now we will cook the goose."

Hus: "Yes, but there will come an eagle in a hundred years that you will not reach."

Luther had a fascination with Hus and had written about him some somewhere. It was later thought that Luther was the eagle Hus prophesied about given the timeline and influence. What makes it all so interesting is Hus was himself from Bohemia and likely taught or espoused some of the forerunners to Anabaptist theology. I apologize if lecturing the choir to speak here, but the links are inextricably tighter between the Reformation and the Radical Reformation than most history would suggest. I'm not the most ecumenical-minded person, but I do think some of this is what the body of Christ analogy means for the church. It doesn't mean we accept any doctrinal diversity and sing kumbayah, but that we at least talk to one another.

In the end, we do need to read into the bad as well, if nothing else more than to learn the negative lessons. For Luther to have drawn from Hus should have made him more sympathetic to the Anabaptists, but it did not. What Luther and some of the others at least approved of is often overlooked by Protestants. When pushed, Luther reverted to many of the tendencies of his contemporary Catholics and wasn't afraid to let the state's sword do some work.

[ohio jones]

Southerner, you might enjoy this book:
The Anabaptists and Contemporary Baptists: Restoring New Testament Christianity
There was a discussion of this on MD, the loss of which is lamented.

There's a bit too much attention given to Hubmaier IMO, not entirely unexpected given his Schwertler views and their alignment with SBC theology, but the rest is worth reading.