Ecclesiastes

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Josh
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Re: Ecclesiastes

Post by Josh »

I found reading Ecclesiastes 9 to someone struggling with not feeling assurance of salvation helpful today.
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lesterb
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Re: Ecclesiastes

Post by lesterb »

Josh wrote:I found reading Ecclesiastes 9 to someone struggling with not feeling assurance of salvation helpful today.
I asked an older brother in church on Sunday about Ecclesiastes. He beamed and said, "That's my favorite book in the Bible. I find it so encouraging."

THAT sort of took me off guard. But it's a very interesting perspective.
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Re: Ecclesiastes

Post by lesterb »

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. (Ecc 1:9-10 KJV)
If we take literally what Solomon says here, this passage is a problem. We live in a time of new things. Is this passage true of computers? iPhones? X-rays? Plastic? Did Solomon have access to an airplane? Or a chariot with an internal combustion engine? Even gunpowder was invented a couple of millennia after Solomon lived.

The book of Proverbs shows us that Solomon could be very practical when he chose. But in Ecclesiastes, he deals with concepts. And how many new concepts can you think of? Concepts that didn’t exist in Solomon’s time?

I’m thinking of basic things. Things like love and hatred, life and death, work and leisure, time and eternity, drudgery and excitement, as well as things like traveling, eating, communicating, and writing books. Then there are emotions like jealousy and anger, and actions like cheating and lying. Is there any new thing under the sun? What about sin? And temptation?

All of us get sick and tired of some of these concepts. Love leaves you vulnerable, but hatred makes you bitter and cynical. Work becomes a drudgery, but leisure time quickly becomes boring. And if we do get our emotions under control, along comes a temptation that tries to trip us and cause us to sin.

Are you feeling negative yet? I have a friend who seemingly never has a negative thought in his life, but most of us do not have that luxury. I think that Solomon was speaking for most of us in this passage. There is something really negative about this thing we call life.

He gets to some answers later. Right now, he’s just making a point, especially for all you optimists out there (the rest of us already knew all this). Get prepared for more!
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Bootstrap
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Re: Ecclesiastes

Post by Bootstrap »

I have a friend named Kirk Lowery who I consider an expert on Ecclesiastes, and he had a few thoughts I thought I might share here.
Kirk Lowery wrote:Well, the key insight is that "vanity of vanity" doesn't mean that. Hevel means "wind, mist, vapor". Any Hebrew dictionary will tell you that. The usage in Ecclesiastes is poetic. So one must interpret the poetic image. A good exercise is to print out the text after removing all the "vanity, meaningless" translations and replace them with the concrete image of wind or mist. And keep in mind how the Bible uses the image of mist for the temporary and low value in life, e.g., what James says about this life. It's like the morning fog that soon lifts and disappears. Everything else follows from that.
Kirk Lowery wrote:Ah, the issue isn't that life isn't worth living. It's that the normal "life goals" -- money, fame, power, etc. -- ultimately won't satisfy the "eternity that God has placed in man's heart". So our focus shouldn't be on them.
Kirk Lowery wrote:One more thing: the Preacher's message is that this world will let you achieve your goals -- sometimes! -- and then it turns out they don't give you what you really are yearning for. This life is paradoxical, because God wants it that way: it is to teach man humility and remind him who is creature and Who is creator. Ecclesiastes is the philosophical explanation for what happened to Job.
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Re: Ecclesiastes

Post by lesterb »

Bootstrap wrote:I have a friend named Kirk Lowery who I consider an expert on Ecclesiastes, and he had a few thoughts I thought I might share here.
Kirk Lowery wrote:Well, the key insight is that "vanity of vanity" doesn't mean that. Hevel means "wind, mist, vapor". Any Hebrew dictionary will tell you that. The usage in Ecclesiastes is poetic. So one must interpret the poetic image. A good exercise is to print out the text after removing all the "vanity, meaningless" translations and replace them with the concrete image of wind or mist. And keep in mind how the Bible uses the image of mist for the temporary and low value in life, e.g., what James says about this life. It's like the morning fog that soon lifts and disappears. Everything else follows from that.
Kirk Lowery wrote:Ah, the issue isn't that life isn't worth living. It's that the normal "life goals" -- money, fame, power, etc. -- ultimately won't satisfy the "eternity that God has placed in man's heart". So our focus shouldn't be on them.
Kirk Lowery wrote:One more thing: the Preacher's message is that this world will let you achieve your goals -- sometimes! -- and then it turns out they don't give you what you really are yearning for. This life is paradoxical, because God wants it that way: it is to teach man humility and remind him who is creature and Who is creator. Ecclesiastes is the philosophical explanation for what happened to Job.
Good thoughts. This is the kind of thing I'm collecting....
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Re: Ecclesiastes

Post by lesterb »

I've been going through Ecclesiastes highlighting the positive statements in blue and the negative statements in yellow. It's interesting how often Solomon actually contradicts himself, sometimes in the same paragraph.

* My heart finds pleasure in toil
* This pleasure is my reward for my toil
* Then I looked at the product of my toil and the effort I had put into it and decided it was all a waste of time -- sheer vanity, spitting into the wind as The Message says.

Utter deflation, just as he thought he was getting somewhere. Ever feel that way? I have, lots of times. :roll:
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Re: Ecclesiastes

Post by MaxPC »

lesterb wrote:I've been going through Ecclesiastes highlighting the positive statements in blue and the negative statements in yellow. It's interesting how often Solomon actually contradicts himself, sometimes in the same paragraph.

* My heart finds pleasure in toil
* This pleasure is my reward for my toil
* Then I looked at the product of my toil and the effort I had put into it and decided it was all a waste of time -- sheer vanity, spitting into the wind as The Message says.

Utter deflation, just as he thought he was getting somewhere. Ever feel that way? I have, lots of times. :roll:
At my age, I can say there have been periods in which that was a temptation. It didn't last long.

55 years ago a Biblical scholar I knew agreed with your assessment of Solomon: that he was suffering from a kind of cyclical depression (modern term: seasonal affective disorder). Your assessment, Lester is a good one.

These days, doctors would probably prescribe more vitamin D and sunlight for Solomon; if they had such treatments in Solomon's era, I wonder if we would have had the book of Ecclesiastes? If not, then what a loss that would be.

We can learn so much from the struggles of both individuals and peoples in the Bible.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Re: Ecclesiastes

Post by Bootstrap »

lesterb wrote:I've been going through Ecclesiastes highlighting the positive statements in blue and the negative statements in yellow. It's interesting how often Solomon actually contradicts himself, sometimes in the same paragraph.

* My heart finds pleasure in toil
* This pleasure is my reward for my toil
* Then I looked at the product of my toil and the effort I had put into it and decided it was all a waste of time -- sheer vanity, spitting into the wind as The Message says.

Utter deflation, just as he thought he was getting somewhere. Ever feel that way? I have, lots of times. :roll:
Are you looking at this text? This part is specifically about wisdom:
I the Preacher have been king over Israel in Jerusalem. And I applied my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom all that is done under heaven. It is an unhappy business that God has given to the children of man to be busy with. I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind.
What is crooked cannot be made straight,
and what is lacking cannot be counted.
I said in my heart, “I have acquired great wisdom, surpassing all who were over Jerusalem before me, and my heart has had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.” And I applied my heart to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is but a striving after wind.
For in much wisdom is much vexation,
and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow
.
I can relate to all of that. The more you study, the more you see what you think wisdom and right living look like, and you can't fix everything, so it leads to frustration. You see so clearly what ought to be fixed, but can't fix it.

At the beginning he moves from "All is Vanity" to "The Vanity of Wisdom", "The Vanity of Self Indulgence", "The Vanity of Living Wisely", "The Vanity of Toil". But he goes on for each of these. You might want, for instance, to trace what he says about wisdom throughout the book, and how what he says at the beginning differs from what he says later. A few quotes.

Still in the early part he tells us that the wise and the fool both die in the same way, and neither is remembered:
So I turned to consider wisdom and madness and folly. For what can the man do who comes after the king? Only what has already been done. Then I saw that there is more gain in wisdom than in folly, as there is more gain in light than in darkness. The wise person has his eyes in his head, but the fool walks in darkness. And yet I perceived that the same event happens to all of them. Then I said in my heart, “What happens to the fool will happen to me also. Why then have I been so very wise?” And I said in my heart that this also is vanity. For of the wise as of the fool there is no enduring remembrance, seeing that in the days to come all will have been long forgotten. How the wise dies just like the fool! So I hated life, because what is done under the sun was grievous to me, for all is vanity and a striving after wind.
I think that's important. When I was young, I used to think I would make a name for myself and be remembered some day. I doubt it. Two or three generations from my death, who will even remember that I existed? Perhaps a few people in my family from time to time, but three to four generations, most people in my family may no longer remember who I was. And that's true no matter what we learn or accomplish. We all die and return to God. Great wisdom, knowledge, or accomplishments do not change that. I once heard someone talking about Christians who need to build great monuments to God. He called this The Edifice Complex. I think Mennonites have this right, walking humbly and simply without pretense is the right way to go.

But I don't think he is saying that we should not pursue wisdom, we should merely recognize its limits. The Holman Bible Handbook is good here:
6:10–7:6 On Wisdom
Ecclesiastes here summarizes its position on wisdom through a series of proverbs and reflections. We must recognize the limits of our wisdom. There is much we will never know (6:10–12). But it is better to go through life with sobriety and understanding than in inane pleasure seeking (7:1–6).

Dockery, D. S., Butler, T. C., Church, C. L., Scott, L. L., Ellis Smith, M. A., White, J. E., & Holman Bible Publishers (Nashville, T. . (1992). Holman Bible Handbook (pp. 364–365). Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers.
Here are the passages that refers to:
Whatever has come to be has already been named, and it is known what man is, and that he is not able to dispute with one stronger than he. The more words, the more vanity, and what is the advantage to man? For who knows what is good for man while he lives the few days of his vain life, which he passes like a shadow? For who can tell man what will be after him under the sun?
But after that he goes right on to say that wisdom is better than folly, and though wisdom leads to sorrow, sorrow is better than laughter, and leads to real gladness.
A good name is better than precious ointment,
and the day of death than the day of birth.
It is better to go to the house of mourning
than to go to the house of feasting,
for this is the end of all mankind,
and the living will lay it to heart.
Sorrow is better than laughter,
for by sadness of face the heart is made glad.
The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning,
but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.
It is better for a man to hear the rebuke of the wise
than to hear the song of fools.
For as the crackling of thorns under a pot,
so is the laughter of the fools;
this also is vanity.
So it's important to trace the development of each of these themes through the book to get a grasp on what he is saying. Perhaps picking a color for what he says about wisdom would be helpful?
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lesterb
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Re: Ecclesiastes

Post by lesterb »

Bootstrap wrote:
lesterb wrote:I've been going through Ecclesiastes highlighting the positive statements in blue and the negative statements in yellow. It's interesting how often Solomon actually contradicts himself, sometimes in the same paragraph.

* My heart finds pleasure in toil
* This pleasure is my reward for my toil
* Then I looked at the product of my toil and the effort I had put into it and decided it was all a waste of time -- sheer vanity, spitting into the wind as The Message says.

Utter deflation, just as he thought he was getting somewhere. Ever feel that way? I have, lots of times. :roll:
Are you looking at this text? This part is specifically about wisdom:
I the Preacher have been king over Israel in Jerusalem. And I applied my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom all that is done under heaven. It is an unhappy business that God has given to the children of man to be busy with. I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind.
What is crooked cannot be made straight,
and what is lacking cannot be counted.
I said in my heart, “I have acquired great wisdom, surpassing all who were over Jerusalem before me, and my heart has had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.” And I applied my heart to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is but a striving after wind.
For in much wisdom is much vexation,
and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow
.
I can relate to all of that. The more you study, the more you see what you think wisdom and right living look like, and you can't fix everything, so it leads to frustration. You see so clearly what ought to be fixed, but can't fix it.

At the beginning he moves from "All is Vanity" to "The Vanity of Wisdom", "The Vanity of Self Indulgence", "The Vanity of Living Wisely", "The Vanity of Toil". But he goes on for each of these. You might want, for instance, to trace what he says about wisdom throughout the book, and how what he says at the beginning differs from what he says later. A few quotes.

Still in the early part he tells us that the wise and the fool both die in the same way, and neither is remembered:
So I turned to consider wisdom and madness and folly. For what can the man do who comes after the king? Only what has already been done. Then I saw that there is more gain in wisdom than in folly, as there is more gain in light than in darkness. The wise person has his eyes in his head, but the fool walks in darkness. And yet I perceived that the same event happens to all of them. Then I said in my heart, “What happens to the fool will happen to me also. Why then have I been so very wise?” And I said in my heart that this also is vanity. For of the wise as of the fool there is no enduring remembrance, seeing that in the days to come all will have been long forgotten. How the wise dies just like the fool! So I hated life, because what is done under the sun was grievous to me, for all is vanity and a striving after wind.
I think that's important. When I was young, I used to think I would make a name for myself and be remembered some day. I doubt it. Two or three generations from my death, who will even remember that I existed? Perhaps a few people in my family from time to time, but three to four generations, most people in my family may no longer remember who I was. And that's true no matter what we learn or accomplish. We all die and return to God. Great wisdom, knowledge, or accomplishments do not change that. I once heard someone talking about Christians who need to build great monuments to God. He called this The Edifice Complex. I think Mennonites have this right, walking humbly and simply without pretense is the right way to go.

But I don't think he is saying that we should not pursue wisdom, we should merely recognize its limits. The Holman Bible Handbook is good here:
6:10–7:6 On Wisdom
Ecclesiastes here summarizes its position on wisdom through a series of proverbs and reflections. We must recognize the limits of our wisdom. There is much we will never know (6:10–12). But it is better to go through life with sobriety and understanding than in inane pleasure seeking (7:1–6).

Dockery, D. S., Butler, T. C., Church, C. L., Scott, L. L., Ellis Smith, M. A., White, J. E., & Holman Bible Publishers (Nashville, T. . (1992). Holman Bible Handbook (pp. 364–365). Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers.
Here are the passages that refers to:
Whatever has come to be has already been named, and it is known what man is, and that he is not able to dispute with one stronger than he. The more words, the more vanity, and what is the advantage to man? For who knows what is good for man while he lives the few days of his vain life, which he passes like a shadow? For who can tell man what will be after him under the sun?
But after that he goes right on to say that wisdom is better than folly, and though wisdom leads to sorrow, sorrow is better than laughter, and leads to real gladness.
A good name is better than precious ointment,
and the day of death than the day of birth.
It is better to go to the house of mourning
than to go to the house of feasting,
for this is the end of all mankind,
and the living will lay it to heart.
Sorrow is better than laughter,
for by sadness of face the heart is made glad.
The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning,
but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.
It is better for a man to hear the rebuke of the wise
than to hear the song of fools.
For as the crackling of thorns under a pot,
so is the laughter of the fools;
this also is vanity.
So it's important to trace the development of each of these themes through the book to get a grasp on what he is saying. Perhaps picking a color for what he says about wisdom would be helpful?
Thanks for the input. I'm in assimilation mode right now. I've gone through the actual text a number of times. That has been good for me, because I tend to get sidetracked with details. But I'm doing like you suggested, listening to the audio version while I read it. This forces me to keep going rather than to regress all the time.

I'm going through the text on paper at this point, so that I can jot down notes and questions. Gradually, as all this soaks in, I hope to be able to get a clearer picture of Solomon's purpose and perspective, and then start to draw out some practical applications and inspirations to bring the whole project down to earth and make it useful.

Hopefully, I'll find some answers for my own life in the process. It isn't a good feeling to sit down and look back over your life and wonder what you've really accomplished that was worth doing. There's nothing like losing your job to prompt some introspection. I wonder what it was that prompted Solomon's introspection. There must have been something that woke him up. I doubt that this was all a scientific experiment on his part.

I need to buy another highlighter. I've used up all my colors. :-|

On a side note, I'm writing this in Solus, a Linux version that I suspect will really go places if it catches on. I downloaded the 2017 version and so far I really like it. I'm running off a USB live setup. Pendrivelinux.com has a multi-boot live USB creator [called YUMI] that allows you to install various OS's and choose which one to boot from.
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Re: Ecclesiastes

Post by Bootstrap »

lesterb wrote:Thanks for the input. I'm in assimilation mode right now. I've gone through the actual text a number of times. That has been good for me, because I tend to get sidetracked with details. But I'm doing like you suggested, listening to the audio version while I read it. This forces me to keep going rather than to regress all the time.

I'm going through the text on paper at this point, so that I can jot down notes and questions. Gradually, as all this soaks in, I hope to be able to get a clearer picture of Solomon's purpose and perspective, and then start to draw out some practical applications and inspirations to bring the whole project down to earth and make it useful.
Excellent.

Incidentally, if you want to know how a book ends, it's often useful to look at the ending. Most people start reading Ecclesiastes with Chapter 1, but that's not his conclusion. He gives his conclusions in chapters 11 and 12.
lesterb wrote:Hopefully, I'll find some answers for my own life in the process. It isn't a good feeling to sit down and look back over your life and wonder what you've really accomplished that was worth doing. There's nothing like losing your job to prompt some introspection. I wonder what it was that prompted Solomon's introspection. There must have been something that woke him up. I doubt that this was all a scientific experiment on his part.
Reflecting on your life is a very good thing. Not all of that feels happy. Ecclesiastes has a lot of wisdom.
lesterb wrote:I need to buy another highlighter. I've used up all my colors. :-|
Colored pencils last longer ;->
lesterb wrote:On a side note, I'm writing this in Solus, a Linux version that I suspect will really go places if it catches on. I downloaded the 2017 version and so far I really like it. I'm running off a USB live setup. Pendrivelinux.com has a multi-boot live USB creator [called YUMI] that allows you to install various OS's and choose which one to boot from.
Cool!
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