The Nicene Creed

[KingdomBuilder]

What exactly makes things easier about believing that Jesus is not fully God? That's exactly what every other non-Christian sect/religion believe. Again, to you and Josh, if Christ is not God then what makes him different from Moses, Mohammed or Joseph Smith? What makes his death more salvific than Michael Sattler's, what makes his teaching about loving our enemies at all binding or important? Why do you choose to follow a mere man?

Okay, but the point is plenty of Christians themselves don't adhere to Trinitarianism.
If Trinitarianism is some kind of safeguard or proof of true Christianity, then do explain why the most murderous, gluttonous, apostate churches are the very ones who initiated and defined the "Holy Trinity".
To say that a claim of Jesus not being coequal and coeternal with Jehovah is the same as saying Jesus was some normal man is absurd presumption. Do you actually think the only two options are man or full God?
Hebrews 3 (and the entire book...) would prove a useful study to Trinitarians with a 1/2 open mind. Jesus , "the man"- the one mediator between God and man, can be "appointed by God" without just being a normal man like Moses. Scripture is exceedingly clear on this.


Do you think believing in Trinitarianism is needed for salvation?

[KingdomBuilder]

"Did the first Chritians worship Jesus?" is an exciting, easy, and worthwhile read. Highly recommend.

[Josh]

And Arians believed in the divinity of Christ. The particular debate was over the details of pre-existence.

There is absolutely no excuse for “Christians” going to war with one another about the details of pre-existence.

[Wade]

"Did the first Chritians worship Jesus?" is an exciting, easy, and worthwhile read. Highly recommend.

I've never read the book but here's the answer:

Matthew 28:17
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

[haithabu]

Trinitarian teaching is an easy target for some because it is formulaic and somewhat abstract, like a mathematical theorem that no one quite gets. In some people's eyes it also carries the stigma of Constantinianism.

I approach the question from the bottom up: What does the Bible teach about God? About Jesus? About the Holy Spirit? What did Jesus say about God, himself and the the Holy Spirit and the relationship between them? When I take that approach I find that I come out at a place very close to the traditional ideas of the Trinity. This should not be surprising because the writers of The Nicene Creed drew from the same Biblical sources that we do.


What we believe about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is important. The Bible's teachings are given us for a reason. I John provides some litmus tests of belief to determine if someone is in the faith or not.

The primacy of Jesus:

Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son can have the Father; whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.
I John 2:22,23

The true incarnation of Jesus:

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.
I John 4:2,3

[Bootstrap]

Trinitarian teaching is an easy target for some because it is formulaic and somewhat abstract, like a mathematical theorem that no one quite gets. In some people's eyes it also carries the stigma of Constantinianism.

And it is phrased in a language we simply do not find in the Bible. Personally, I find it very helpful to use the same language as the Bible when describing what it says.

I approach the question from the bottom up: What does the Bible teach about God? About Jesus? About the Holy Spirit? What did Jesus say about God, himself and the the Holy Spirit and the relationship between them? When I take that approach I find that I come out at a place very close to the traditional ideas of the Trinity. This should not be surprising because the writers of The Nicene Creed drew from the same Biblical sources that we do.

I agree. But the Bible is a step short of what the Nicene Creed teaches, it does not give us a simple logical formula for understanding the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And as much as I appreciate a neat summary, I am not entirely sure they got it completely right. This kind of theological explanation became necessary under Constantine precisely because Greek philosophers don't like to leave these things unspecified.

So I pray to the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, or pray to God, but I do not pray to The Trinity. I have no particular opinion about substances and essences.

What we believe about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is important. The Bible's teachings are given us for a reason. I John provides some litmus tests of belief to determine if someone is in the faith or not.

The primacy of Jesus:

Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son can have the Father; whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.
I John 2:22,23

The true incarnation of Jesus:

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.
I John 4:2,3

[KingdomBuilder]

You did not answer my questions.

[KingdomBuilder]

"Did the first Chritians worship Jesus?" is an exciting, easy, and worthwhile read. Highly recommend.

I've never read the book but here's the answer:

Matthew 28:17
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Don't be excessively simple. Those Baptists are getting to you

[KingdomBuilder]

I approach the question from the bottom up: What does the Bible teach about God? About Jesus? About the Holy Spirit? What did Jesus say about God, himself and the the Holy Spirit and the relationship between them? When I take that approach I find that I come out at a place very close to the traditional ideas of the Trinity. This should not be surprising because the writers of The Nicene Creed drew from the same Biblical sources that we do.

And so do I. From the language, to the metaphors- and yet I do not come to the conclusion you claim is so easily found. Not only me, but the most prominent nontrinitarian denominations. Most of which originated in a time when a call to bible scholarship, not tradition, was emphasized. If you can believe the Catholic history in good faith, trinitarianism is for you!

So do you think you can be saved while rejecting trinity doctrine? Yay or nay?

[Valerie]

Constantine calling the Bishops from various areas had nothing to do with him being Greek. rous heresy was sowing divord (yhayd a sin) & the enemy of our soul loves to divide the Church. Peace needed restored These over 300 Bishops who came to the call to council, many still had the marks of persecution on their bodies-Condtsntone had ended the long years of suffering the Church had survived.

It's easy to say what 'we' or 'should' have been done at the time. It is amazing to me people lack the ability it seems to put themselves back 1300 years & understand this. I suppose it is because we are in a time where over 40,000 sects (& cults) represent the Church today. Not so at that time. The Church who canonized the Scriptures we trust still was heeding the warnings by Christ that false teachers & doctrines would try to destroy the Church. They were told to contend for the faith (Jude 3). They were told they were the pillar and ground of the tfith(1 Timothy 3:25). An enormous responsibility go maintain the unity Chrisy prayrd go His Fsther wr would have, that this unity itself, would be a witness to the world. Now wr I've in a time where churches split & recreate themselves over FAR lesd important things (should I nsme some?)

We must remember too, the fo trine of the Trinity existed long before Constantine calling this council.