Conversion

[ken_sylvania]

Today while waiting to be serviced at a store I was listening in to the talk on the TV they had going (some sports network).
They were talking with an athlete who had recently "gone off the deep end". According to the broadcast, he had some kind of breakdown, he left the sport, moved off, "believed in God and got baptized", then came back to playing.
After this intro, they asked what he'd learned during his turmoil that he'd like to tell all the listeners. His response? "Always believe in yourself. That's the first thing. If you can't, though, then it's time to look to faith".
Really?! A man who is claiming conversion is saying faith is some second-best option to self-help?
Sounds a lot like the business this OP is talking about.

Wow really? To first try to believe in yourself and if that fails look to "faith" sounded like what I was talking about?!

The realisation that we are lost in and of ourselves, and we can't do any spiritual good without Christ doesn't even seem te remotely come close to "believe in yourself, and if that fails give faith a shot".. are you biased against me sir?

You started off your OP by saying:

Any conversion which does not bear in it a consciousness of man's total loss and ruin, any conversion which does not teach man the fact that he can do nothing, is a conversion from which he needs to be converted, and a repentance which needs to be repented of. – Charles Spurgeon

KB is saying that a man who sees faith as a second-rate option has had this kind of conversion, a conversion which needs to be repented of.

[ken_sylvania]

KB it seems, misunderstood Spurgeon's quote, the two are totally unrelated. Spurgeon's quote also reminds me of the parable of the pharisee & the publican and who Jesus said was justified between the two.

Maybe I also misunderstand the quote from Spurgeon. The way I understand that quote is that Spurgeon was discussing exactly that kind of a "conversion." A conversion in which a man does not understand his own helplessness. And he says such a conversion isn't going to do the job. Needs to be repented of.

[Bootstrap]

Not long ago a brother and I were discussing the term "conversion." We weren't quite comfortable with how it is often defined. I brought up the conversion that happened when Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea. He said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

A far cry from doing nothing.

I'm confused. Here's the quote:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Jesus, we can do nothing. With Jesus, we can do a lot more than we can ask or imagine. But often we don't. Often, Christianity seems to look like helping out in the family fishing business and joining the family church, carefully repairing the nets and the boats like responsible stewards, raising our family of future fishermen, eventually inheriting the business and providing for our aging parents.

Assuming Simon and Andrew were good Jews in a good Jewish family, what changed when they followed him? What makes our Christian walk different than their walk before they were called? I think the answers to these questions will tell us what conversion means.

[MaxPC]

Not long ago a brother and I were discussing the term "conversion." We weren't quite comfortable with how it is often defined. I brought up the conversion that happened when Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea. He said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

A far cry from doing nothing.

I agree. Once the realization emerges that one is sinful and there is a better way, then the continued ongoing conversion of the heart, mind and soul begins. I view conversion as a life-long process after that initial realization. That process, our discipleship, brings with it the desire to spread the news of our salvation through actions as well as words out of gratitude and love for God. YMMV.

[Valerie]

I understand KB to be against the same thing as Paul’s OP.

Then I misunderstood KB! My apologies, I thought they were saying 2 different things-
Lesson: read slowly, and carefully!

[Paul]

Well maybe I was misinterpreting KB's post.. I am getting confused here

[Paul]

Maybe I also misunderstand the quote from Spurgeon. The way I understand that quote is that Spurgeon was discussing exactly that kind of a "conversion." A conversion in which a man does not understand his own helplessness. And he says such a conversion isn't going to do the job. Needs to be repented of.

No that's the correct interpretation indeed, the sermon was on the text of John 15:1 and the title is 'Self-sufficiency slain'. Here is the audio-sermon if you're interested:

[cmbl]

Not long ago a brother and I were discussing the term "conversion." We weren't quite comfortable with how it is often defined. I brought up the conversion that happened when Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea. He said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

A far cry from doing nothing.

I'm confused. Here's the quote:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I think I understand where the confusion comes from. There are two quotes in the OP, and they say different things. The first is this:

Any conversion which does not bear in it a consciousness of man's total loss and ruin, any conversion which does not teach man the fact that he can do nothing, is a conversion from which he needs to be converted, and a repentance which needs to be repented of. – Charles Spurgeon

This is a nice-sounding quote, but there's a problem: as it stands*, it states that man can do nothing, which is not true. Furthermore, it states that "true" conversion teaches that we can do nothing. No, conversion means starting to do the will of God, which is actually doing something. So I mentioned Simon and Andrew who did something - they followed Jesus.

The second quote in the OP is John 15:5. That says that apart from Jesus we can do nothing, which is very true. Simon and Andrew did something with Jesus - they followed Him.

*(I was replying to the first quote before the sermon was posted. There may be context in the full sermon which mitigates this.)

[lily of the desert]

Any conversion which does not bear in it a consciousness of man's total loss and ruin, any conversion which does not teach man the fact that he can do nothing, is a conversion from which he needs to be converted, and a repentance which needs to be repented of. – Charles Spurgeon

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I came across this quote tonight and I considered posting it in another thread but since it might've been somewhat off-topic I decided to make a new one. I couldn't agree more with Spurgeon on this topic, without Christ we can do absolutely nothing, and it also has been my own personal experience that God revealed my own total loss and ruin to draw me to the Savior.

So what are your experiences in conversion in relation to this specific topic? Did you experience what Spurgeon described above, that you could do absolutely nothing without Christ?

Every day, since becoming a believer, I have experience what my Saviour, Jesus Christ, said in John 15:5, which is not anything like what Spurgeon is saying [1], even though many think it is. The doctrine of total depravity is not biblical. We can respond to the call of God through the gospel, and this is not a work.

I think you'll find a growing group of Christians now a days who call Calvinism heresy - even those who are not Roman Catholic - and for good reason. I am one of them. Calvinism is not the gospel [2]. Calvinism is heresy.

_____________________________________________________________________

[1] "There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer—I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it." -Pastor Charles H. Spurgeon

[2] “And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else”

source: From The Autobiography of Charles H. Spurgeon, Curts and Jennings, Cincinnati - Chicago - St. Louis, 1898, Vol. I., Page 172.

[KingdomBuilder]

I understand KB to be against the same thing as Paul’s OP.

That was my point.
Not biased against you Paul, as I don't know you.