Islamic arguments about God

[Bootstrap]

My background is as an atheist who followed science and science takes exactly the same position about reality, namely that any conclusion about reality reached with deductive reasoning is nothing more than a hypothesis until it has been verified against the real world. Only then is it accepted as likely to be true.

I guess the Christian perspective is that the "real world" includes a reality beyond what you know with just your senses. Logic and scientific experiments don't get you there. And we also believe that most people are in denial unless they turn to God for grace to see. That's a lot like the man returning to the cave in the Allegory of the Cave, trying to explain that light is good and being chained in a cave is bad - things that don't make sense to the inhabitants of the cave.

I can't prove God. I can't prove that a poem is good or that the espresso I just drank is better than coffee or that Bach is a particularly good composer or that my wife is an amazing match for me either. And even if I could - you would be much better off letting yourself get absorbed in the St Matthew's Passion than sitting around debating whether Bach is a good composer, there's a majesty there that is very human and very real. Some things are beyond logical proof. But I can point people in God's direction, and I can promise you that if you sincerely ask God to reveal himself to you, he usually answers that prayer. But like the people in the Allegory of the Cave, you have to be willing to be open to a completely different reality than the one you have been living in.

To me, "verifying against the real world" doesn't mean only the dark cave, there's more to the world than that. If our world is limited to the things that deductive reasoning is good at, it's pretty limited.

[Franklin]

How are you using the term "absolute truth" here?

Absolute truth is truth independent of the mind. The Old Testament view didn't have absolute truth, it had relative truth. Here God is universal but not absolute. In Christianity and Islam, God is absolute. Talmudic Judaism uses deductive reason to find truth, but its truth is relative. Anyway, I doubt many people today can understand any of this because absolute truth has been completely fundamental to Western culture for the last 2500 years. And it isn't necessary to understand this in order to understand the key point of this thread. What I am concerned about here isn't the nature of truth, but rather how truth is found. There are 3 possible sources of truth: deductive reasoning / rationalism / your mind, inductive reasoning / empiricism / reality, and religion / sacred text. Of these 3, my preference in order is inductive reasoning, religion, and deductive reasoning far last. This reflects my scientific background.

[Franklin]

Franklin,
i can follow you pretty well, up to the points of your conclusions, which are, as well-educated and experienced as they are, they seem to leave out room for God's Will.

(to me) Jesus came to earth to replace Plato, Socrates, all false gods and beliefs, along with the OT.

i understand about "appearances."
there are abundant appearances of Christian fail. in cities, and elsewhere. in my heart!

but, God is greater-than all those appearances combined. He will prevail. He has prevailed.

The biggest threats are the ones you don't see. What would be the best way to destroy a religion? To teach a false teaching in God's name. So how can this be recognized and avoided? One way is to judge a tree by its fruit. I think the quality of the fruit of mainstream Christianity is declining. But then to address this, one has to look for the cause. And that is what I am trying to do in the context of history.

Islam faced the same issue that Christianity is facing today, and Islam recognized the problem and dealt with it. Islam's solution certainly did not leave out God's Will, in fact it made God's Will completely central to the point where it left no room for using deductive reason to judge God's Will.

[silentreader]

10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

The "perfect" mentioned here I assume is God, not ideal forms.

Perhaps I'm bunny trailing, but I understand the perfect here to mean something like completion, not God. Can anyone confirm or correct me?

There is little doubt, even from the context, that it means 'that which is complete' or 'that which is mature' here.

[Franklin]

I guess the Christian perspective is that the "real world" includes a reality beyond what you know with just your senses. Logic and scientific experiments don't get you there. And we also believe that most people are in denial unless they turn to God for grace to see. That's a lot like the man returning to the cave in the Allegory of the Cave, trying to explain that light is good and being chained in a cave is bad - things that don't make sense to the inhabitants of the cave.

There are a lot of things beyond what one knows with one's senses. For example math. So here one must make assumptions, which in math is called axioms and in religion is called faith. But this is meant to complement what you know with your senses, not to replace it. If there is a conflict between what you know with your senses and what you conclude from your assumptions, then you really should try to reconcile these things.

I can't prove God. I can't prove that a poem is good or that the espresso I just drank is better than coffee or that Bach is a particularly good composer or that my wife is an amazing match for me either. And even if I could - you would be much better off letting yourself get absorbed in the St Matthew's Passion than sitting around debating whether Bach is a good composer, there's a majesty there that is very human and very real. Some things are beyond logical proof. But I can point people in God's direction, and I can promise you that if you sincerely ask God to reveal himself to you, he usually answers that prayer. But like the people in the Allegory of the Cave, you have to be willing to be open to a completely different reality than the one you have been living in.

One can't prove anything about reality, which is the point. My problem is with people who try to prove statements about reality or God using logic. This is what Plato suggested, that enlightened philosophers could see ideal forms and then prove things about reality based on this and logic. This I reject.

To me, "verifying against the real world" doesn't mean only the dark cave, there's more to the world than that. If our world is limited to the things that deductive reasoning is good at, it's pretty limited.

"Verifying against the real world" is inductive reasoning. It proves nothing but as I said means it is "accepted as likely to be true". That is good enough for practical life, and is far better than believing random ideas of the mind.

[Bootstrap]

I think we're a lot closer to agreeing than I thought yesterday. I need time to think before responding further, and I need to do extensive writing today for work, so it may take a while.

[temporal1]

Franklin:
The biggest threats are the ones you don't see.

the insidious. agreed.

Franklin:
What would be the best way to destroy a religion?

(pause)
religions can fade, or be destroyed in various ways. proven in history.
God does not fail. Truth, alone, remains relevant, past all the rest forever:

1 Peter 5:11
The dominion belongs to Him forever. Amen.

Franklin:
To teach a false teaching in God's name.
So how can this be recognized and avoided?
One way is to judge a tree by its fruit. I think the quality of the fruit of mainstream Christianity is declining. But then to address this, one has to look for the cause. And that is what I am trying to do in the context of history.

correct. the false will not hold up over time, it cannot! - whether a short time, in human thinking, or a longer time, again, in human thinking.
God owns time. He is not bound by human understanding.

2 Peter 3:8
…7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice:
With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

9The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.…

He wants you, Franklin.

Franklin:
Islam faced the same issue that Christianity is facing today, and Islam recognized the problem and dealt with it.

Islam's solution certainly did not leave out God's Will, in fact it made God's Will completely central to the point where it left no room for using deductive reason to judge God's Will.

humans are capable of disgracing everything. what falls away, no matter assigned labels, is false.

attempting to define or contain God's Will may be the greatest failure of all.
think of the first commandments, identical in OT and NT.

the I AM, the I WILL BE, is about acceptance and submission, humility and obedience.
not control of definitions by human law. whether misused by Islam or Christians.
we see in part, Franklin. God sees in full.

[Josh]

I'm not sure how Christianity can't survive in the cities. Plain Anabaptists certainly exist there. And then there are other people I admire like Shane Claiborne.

[haithabu]

I'm late to the party, but I will throw my 2 bits in.

Christianity is at the deepest level a revealed faith. No philosopher would dream up a Trinity but we believe it, (not because it is referred to explicitly in the Bible but) because the authorities of the (then) unified church agreed fairly early on that the doctrine is an accurate synthesis of the paradoxical truths revealed about God in the Bible. So there is an element of reason involved in Christian doctrine but the foundation is one of revelation.

As long as Christians hold fast to that foundation of revealed truth then Christianity will thrive anywhere. It may have its differences within itself as believers apply their human reason to understand God's revelation in differing ways, but they are still bound together because they are drinking from the same well. The church in the West (though not elsewhere) has weakened over the last century to the extent that it has moved away from that foundation. The individual churches and denominations that do so write their own death warrant; on the other hand the churches which continue to thrive are those which maintain their primary focus on God's revelation.

And this makes sense because we believe in a living and active God. He is not a mountain to be climbed as in the eastern religions nor is He a philosopher's God which can be apprehended through reason alone but He is a God who reaches down to us and reveals His truth to anyone who will receive it.

What will happen to Christianity in the future I don't know and to tell the truth I am not so concerned, because after all I do believe in a living God. I think of Elijah who believed he was the last man standing until God revealed to him that He had other faithful believers and had prepared other servants. If Christendom were to come to an end (ie, that there are no more officially Christian societies) Christianity would continue as a transnational religion as it did in the beginning and as Judaism still does. Faithful until Jesus returns or Messiah comes, however you want to put it.

[Valerie]

Really appreciate your post Haithabu!
My son majored in science in college- I believe the enemy of our souls has greatly used it-
Seeing how at this point in time, it appears Christianity is going the other direction and faith is gradually waning- and atheism is on the rise, I am mindful of Jesus words in Luke 18:
6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.

7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?


You see, it is no surprise that Jesus shared the lack of faith we will see when He returns. Or at least the implication is there- I shared that passage with my son the scientist (although he does believe) but just that we would eventually come to a time when faith would wane- and we are witnessing that.
Also the 'falling away' before the Antichrist-apparently Apostle Paul knew this by revelation from the Lord:
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Seems like a 'general falling away' will occur-

Which by the way, to those who doubt, I appreciate that the 'Written' Word of God, prophesied these days so that in itself should encourage our faith as we see things starting to go the other way- it was prophesied to do so.

Plus the condition of mankind in the Last Days:
2 Timothy 3King James Version (KJV)

3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.