Sovereignty or Free Will?

[Josh]

I just heard a sermon on this at the fellowship meeting. The question was presented that we all have differing views on this. Just ask the question "When someone commits suicide, was it God's will? or Free will?' There are many various answers to that question but this reveals a little of what you believe.

There are Christians out there that really believe that suicide 'could be' God's will? Unbelievable.

Many Christians have a general approach that God is completely sovereign to the point he pre-ordains everything.

[Soloist]

I just heard a sermon on this at the fellowship meeting. The question was presented that we all have differing views on this. Just ask the question "When someone commits suicide, was it God's will? or Free will?' There are many various answers to that question but this reveals a little of what you believe.

There are Christians out there that really believe that suicide 'could be' God's will? Unbelievable.

Many Christians have a general approach that God is completely sovereign to the point he pre-ordains everything.

Often the go to verse for this idea would be

Matt 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

Now KJV translates this differently then most other versions, ESV would be

And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?

Psalm 139:16
16 yThine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; And in thy book †all my members were written, Which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

I'm not arguing for either side, just an observation.

[Josh]

It’s reasonable to argue humans can’t make decisions to make themselves taller or indefinitely lengthen their lives.

That’s wholly different from the idea humans don’t actually make decisions at all.

[haithabu]

Sovereignty or free will?

- Yes.

Does God will bad things to happen?

- Yes and no. He does not afflict willingly, but He does afflict
- The affliction is within the framework of His love.
- God permits actions which He does not approve.

For the Lord will not reject forever, for if He causes grief, then He will have compassion according to His abundant lovingkindness. For He does not afflict willingly, or grieve the sons of men.

To crush under His feet all the prisoners of the land,
To deprive a man of justice in the presence of the Most High,
To defraud a man in his lawsuit— of these things the Lord does not approve.

Lamentations 3:31-36

Or this:

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

Matthew 10:29

It does not fall apart from our Father, yet the sparrow does fall.

To me the great comfort is not that God will never let anything bad happen to me, but that nothing that occurs to me can be outside His love, as painful though it may be.

A loving God is not necessarily an analgesic God. He has purposes in us which don't always fit with our comfort.

[Mennogal]

Piper uses this passage to spearhead a message he preached on the absolute sovereignty of God...

[bible]Isa 46,8-11[/bible]

Piper basically says that in order to believe in the sovereignty of God we have to accept that everything that happens on earth is God's plan. That includes every tsunami, every earthquake, every tornado, every war, every rape, every murder. There is no such thing as a bad thing happening to you, because it is all part of God's perfect plan.

But nine chapters after the passage above, Isaiah says the following...

[bible]Isa 55,6-7[/bible]

This passage seems to indicate that man is free to choose his actions and therefore his destiny.

I suppose all of us would say we believe in the sovereignty of God. But how do you put together the two sides of this? A lot of people today use this to question that God even exists. Or if he does exist they say it makes him either evil or powerless.

I believe in the the sovereignty of God in so far as He created man. If we believe that everything happens according to God’s will, then we believe that innocent people are murdered because of that same will, or that people die in tsunamis because of God’s will. I don’t believe that God willfully brings us harm, but rather man brings it upon himself by virtue of informed choice. One of the ways that I might forgive a murderer is that God created our spirits perfectly, but not our human inner being. That human inner being is infused with the spirit of choice, and is where the wrongful nature of man resides, but the spirit remains pure.

[betterpromises2]

Adam's sin is a problem for the Piper point-of-view.

If he believes that everything that happens in the world is or was made to happen by God, then God must have also caused Adam to sin.

However, we all agree that the Bible describes God as perfectly Holy, with no darkness at all; so, how could or would he cause sin to happen?

That would make no sense.

[Paul]

God is fully Sovereign, and man is still responsible. I think this is a matter of believing these things to be true because the Bible teaches them both. I read this passage this morning from Deuteronomy 29:29 that I think applies to these facts that are incomprehensible to the human mind:

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

[cmbl]

I think Isaiah 46 says that God tells things that have yet to happen. I don't think it states that God pre-ordains everything. So I see no conflict between Isaiah 46 and 55.

[cmbl]

God is fully Sovereign, and man is still responsible.

For the sake of clarity, do you mean that in the Calvinist sense? That is, when you write Sovereign, do you believe that God pre-ordains everything that happens?

[Josh]

According to Calvinists, it is perfectly holy, good, and just to create humans who have no choice but to suffer conscious eternal torment. This is basically why I’m not a Calvinist, since I don’t see that kind of thinking really shown in scripture anywhere.