"gay Christian"

General Christian Theology
HondurasKeiser
Posts: 1753
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:33 pm
Location: La Ceiba, Honduras
Affiliation: LMC & IEMH

Re: "gay Christian"

Post by HondurasKeiser »

mike wrote:Thanks for sharing that, HK. I appreciate your tone and your frankness, and I believe you are probably correct in your opinions about modern expressions of sexual identity. I'd be interested in what else you have to say about it.
Thank you Mike for your kind words. The idea of homosexuality and it's heretofore normative counterpart, heterosexuality, were inventions of the fledgling social sciences coming out of Germany in the late 1800's. These were secular, enlightened and purely scientific attempts at categorizing people based on their sexual proclivities. Obviously at the time, heterosexuality was held up as the norm and "good" and all deviations from that norm were deemed pathologies to be treated psychologically, criminalized or at the very least pushed to the fringes of respectable society. There was no appeal to natural law, religion or even tradition in these new categories, rather and as was their wont, the German psychologists and their American students sought to give a scientific and methodical explanation both for the categories and their varied treatments. In their attempt to normalize heterosexuality and pathologize homosexuality they failed miserably. They unmoored themselves from religion and natural law, which had said that right sex was for marriage which in turn was for the purpose of procreating and fostering the next generation. Any deviation from the natural norm then was, according to Christian teaching, a result of giving in to the universal human nature which we are all susceptible to (read the maxim: "There but for the Grace of God go I"). Instead the social sciences claimed that sex was a result of individual passions and marriage was an expression of romance and a vehicle for fulfillment and happiness. They believed that heterosexual expressions of that passion were "good" or normative and all others "bad" or aberrations. In the end they couldn't explain why they categorized these passions as they did i.e. hetero=good, homo=bad other than through a gut feeling or gag reflex and the history of the 20th Century then is a radical deconstruction of these categories and a normalization not just of homosexuality but of all sexual desires, moving in whichever direction the individual passion might take them. Modern psychology drills into us that in order to be truly human, actualized or fulfilled we must give expression to our sexual desires and passions, no matter what they are. Wundt, Freud and James while no Christian moralists themselves, would still be appalled.

In their attempt then to create a scientific bulwark against sexual deviation they not only failed but accidentally created the vehicle for its normalization. What they did achieve though then was a radical rethinking of humans and their sexual expression. Up until the 1800's we had always appealed to natural law and a vague Christian understanding of human nature; that meant then specifically for the person inclined to the same-sex, that their desires or orientation, as we might say today, no more defined them than did their attraction to certain books, fashions or occupations. What we did categorize then were people's actions; persons engaging in homosexual actions were deemed sodomites not because their actions were fundamentally who they were but because they had transgressed certain moral and civil codes, engaged in the act of sodomy and rejected the Christo-normative purpose of procreative sex. This may strike we post-moderns as "ostrich in the sand" type behavior i.e. ignoring the true source of actions, but the pre-moderns, steeped in the Christian tradition, rightly recognized that that both desires and actions are transient, mutable and a poor way to define people. Christian teaching and living in reality shows us that desires can change, grow in intensity, become deadened or desensitized and that in the end, to define ourselves by the desires that come in and out of our life, is to set ourselves adrift and subject ourselves to the whims of circumstance and poor decisions. Likewise we are taught that actions, while laden with consequences both spiritually and materially, are also redeemable and absolutely do not define us. Christ died to redeem us from those very actions so then to define ourselves by them is to essentially reject what Christ has done for us.

That's all I have time for right now, do let me know if I'm being to "rambly".
0 x
Affiliation: Lancaster Mennonite Conference & Honduran Mennonite Evangelical Church
RZehr
Posts: 7295
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:42 am
Affiliation: Cons. Mennonite

Re: "gay Christian"

Post by RZehr »

Thanks for your input HK. What I am hearing makes sense to me.
0 x
temporal1
Posts: 16484
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:09 pm
Location: U.S. midwest and PNW
Affiliation: Christian other

Re: "gay Christian"

Post by temporal1 »

mike wrote:Thanks for sharing that, HK. I appreciate your tone and your frankness, and I believe you are probably correct in your opinions about modern expressions of sexual identity. I'd be interested in what else you have to say about it.
always great to hear from you, HK - :D
0 x
Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
UNKNOWN
KingdomBuilder
Posts: 1482
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:00 pm
Affiliation: church of Christ

Re: "gay Christian"

Post by KingdomBuilder »

HondurasKeiser wrote: Christian teaching and living in reality shows us that desires can change, grow in intensity, become deadened or desensitized and that in the end, to define ourselves by the desires that come in and out of our life, is to set ourselves adrift and subject ourselves to the whims of circumstance and poor decisions. Likewise we are taught that actions, while laden with consequences both spiritually and materially, are also redeemable and absolutely do not define us. Christ died to redeem us from those very actions so then to define ourselves by them is to essentially reject what Christ has done for us.
I can get on board with this.

HZ, to clarify, you are saying that homosexual passions, lusts, and actions are still sinful, right? Sorry if I missed it.
0 x
Ponder anew what the Almighty can do
HondurasKeiser
Posts: 1753
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:33 pm
Location: La Ceiba, Honduras
Affiliation: LMC & IEMH

Re: "gay Christian"

Post by HondurasKeiser »

KingdomBuilder wrote: I can get on board with this.

HZ, to clarify, you are saying that homosexual passions, lusts, and actions are still sinful, right? Sorry if I missed it.
I am, yes.
0 x
Affiliation: Lancaster Mennonite Conference & Honduran Mennonite Evangelical Church
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 24336
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: "gay Christian"

Post by Josh »

HK has summarised my own position well; I bet we've read some of the same thinkers on the topic. I like a teleological approach to this topic.
0 x
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14668
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: "gay Christian"

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:HK has summarised my own position well; I bet we've read some of the same thinkers on the topic. I like a teleological approach to this topic.
A what?
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 24336
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: "gay Christian"

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote:
Josh wrote:HK has summarised my own position well; I bet we've read some of the same thinkers on the topic. I like a teleological approach to this topic.
A what?
Looking for the telos (purpose) in various things, especially our humanity, to make decisions about what is moral and what is not.

I happen to believe human sexuality's primary purpose is procreation, so the farther one's behaviour gets from that, the more likely we are to be doing things that are dehumanising and distract us from our purpose.
0 x
User avatar
mike
Posts: 5446
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:32 pm
Affiliation: ConMen

Re: "gay Christian"

Post by mike »

HondurasKeiser wrote:Christian teaching and living in reality shows us that desires can change, grow in intensity, become deadened or desensitized and that in the end, to define ourselves by the desires that come in and out of our life, is to set ourselves adrift and subject ourselves to the whims of circumstance and poor decisions. Likewise we are taught that actions, while laden with consequences both spiritually and materially, are also redeemable and absolutely do not define us. Christ died to redeem us from those very actions so then to define ourselves by them is to essentially reject what Christ has done for us.

That's all I have time for right now, do let me know if I'm being to "rambly".
I certainly agree with your bottom line. The history I'm taking your word on, but it makes sense.
0 x
Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14668
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: "gay Christian"

Post by Bootstrap »

mike wrote:I certainly agree with your bottom line. The history I'm taking your word on, but it makes sense.
His history matches what I have been able to discover.

But there's more history before that. The way we experience our feelings has a lot to do with the way we understand things in our culture, and feelings of love and passion are no different that way. Freud dramatically changed the way we understand the "sex drive" and what it means. Long before that, the Minnesänger and Meistersänger introduced a new understanding of romantic love that is quite different from earlier understandings.

Back in ancient Greece, freeborn males were expected to sleep with other males or with slave girls until they married. Nobody talked about sexual orientation.

We experience, interpret, and feel within our culture. It's really hard for a human being to do anything else. Which is one good argument for alternative cultures and deep fellowship in the Kingdom.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Post Reply