"gay Christian"

[Josh]

I have been uneasy with this terminology from the beginning, and it isn't getting any better, so I'm ready to back off. I just thought that using the terminology that the persons involved are most familiar/comfortable with would help in communicating two things: compassion, and secondly, a recognition that all sin is equal, and that temptation is not sin.

Exactly.

The alternative is to start by saying, "I want you to know that I reject your understanding of who you are and what you feel, and refuse to listen to the words that you choose to describe yourself, so now that we've made that clear, let's talk".

You know, Boot, I call my trans friends by their preferred pronouns (some of whom change them on a regular basis), and do my best not to offend them.

Yet at the end of the day, I think their identity is grounded in delusions and poor mental health. I still listen to what they have to say, but that doesn't mean that their "identity" is healthy or good. Part of them being restored to wholeness is letting go of the identity of "I am a transsexual Christian" or "I am a female Christian who has a biologically male body" and simply embrace "I am a Christian, who has a body and mind with imperfections just like everyone other son and daughter of Adam".

[Josh]

Well, Szdfan made it sound like pretty well every congregation has LGBTQ people attending. I was wondering if its really that common, and how often it actually shows up. I know that it has at times, but I'm still thinking that it isn't as common as he made it sound. But maybe I've just got my head buried in the sand.

As someone whose "gaydar" works pretty well and who used to have quite a few LGBTQQIA+ friends (although I have fewer and fewer as time goes on, and the recent election isn't helping), I would estimate they are about 1-3% in our circles - just like they are in the rest of the world. Since I am divorced and end up socialising in the same circles as older single people, I run into some people I am quite confident experience same sex attraction but who seem to be living unmarried and celibate lives.

In my opinion, they are as excellent of church members as any of the rest of us. Something I appreciate is that I don't have to view them as "gay" or "gay and in the closet" and it's not something we need to talk about - just like I do not spend a great deal of time talking with my heterosexual friends about their potentially sinful attractions, and I don't think of them as my "tempted to commit adultery friend" or "tempted to fornicate friend". Instead we are just brothers and sisters in Christ.

[Szdfan]

I have been uneasy with this terminology from the beginning, and it isn't getting any better, so I'm ready to back off. I just thought that using the terminology that the persons involved are most familiar/comfortable with would help in communicating two things: compassion, and secondly, a recognition that all sin is equal, and that temptation is not sin.

Exactly.

The alternative is to start by saying, "I want you to know that I reject your understanding of who you are and what you feel, and refuse to listen to the words that you choose to describe yourself, so now that we've made that clear, let's talk".

I think all of us hunger to be known for who we really are and how we understand ourselves, which is one reason I'm uncomfortable calling somebody else's identity a "false identity," especially when it's not an identity we share.

[Wade]

I have been uneasy with this terminology from the beginning, and it isn't getting any better, so I'm ready to back off. I just thought that using the terminology that the persons involved are most familiar/comfortable with would help in communicating two things: compassion, and secondly, a recognition that all sin is equal, and that temptation is not sin.

Exactly.

The alternative is to start by saying, "I want you to know that I reject your understanding of who you are and what you feel, and refuse to listen to the words that you choose to describe yourself, so now that we've made that clear, let's talk".

I think all of us hunger to be known for who we really are and how we understand ourselves, which is one reason I'm uncomfortable calling somebody else's identity a "false identity," especially when it's not an identity we share.

"He must increase, but I must decrease."
"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me."

Dying to Self
When you are forgotten or neglected or purposely set at naught, and you do not sting and hurt at the oversight, but your heart is happy. being counted worthy to suffer for Christ,

that is dying to self.

When your good is evil spoken of, when your wishes are crossed, your advice disregarded, your opinions ridiculed, and you refuse to let anger rise in your heart, or even defend yourself, but take it all in patient, loving silence,

that is dying to self.

When you lovingly and patiently bear any disorder, any irregularity, any unpunctuality, or any annoyance, when you stand face to face with waste, folly, extravagance, spiritual insensibility and endure it just as Jesus endured it,

that is dying to self.

When you are content with any food, any offering, any raiment, any climate, any society, any solitude, any interruption by the will of God,

that is dying to self.

When you never care to refer to yourself in conversation, or to record your own good works, or itch after commendation, when you can truly love to be unknown,

that is dying to self.

When you can receive correction and reproof from one of less stature than yourself and can humbly submit inwardly as well as outwardly, finding no rebellion or resentment rising up within your heart,

that is dying to self.

[Wade]

I have been uneasy with this terminology from the beginning, and it isn't getting any better, so I'm ready to back off. I just thought that using the terminology that the persons involved are most familiar/comfortable with would help in communicating two things: compassion, and secondly, a recognition that all sin is equal, and that temptation is not sin.

Exactly.

The alternative is to start by saying, "I want you to know that I reject your understanding of who you are and what you feel, and refuse to listen to the words that you choose to describe yourself, so now that we've made that clear, let's talk".

I think all of us hunger to be known for who we really are and how we understand ourselves, which is one reason I'm uncomfortable calling somebody else's identity a "false identity," especially when it's not an identity we share.

A Christians identity is in Christ. Putting "gay" first implies that Christ comes after self...

Christ is always first to a Christian.

[Bootstrap]

A Christians identity is in Christ. Putting "gay" first implies that Christ comes after self...

Christ is always first to a Christian.

I think we have broad agreement on what we want to say. We seem to be going in circles.

This all started when I quoted a celibate Christian, faithful to biblical teaching, who calls himself a "gay Christian". I thought he had useful things to say. To me, it feels like this one phrase got picked up, ignoring everything else. If we have to all agree on what words we need to use before we can talk, it's harder to talk.

These were the words he used to describe himself. He talks to others who see themselves as gay, and is trying to communicate with them. He seemed to be very clear that his identity is in Christ and that lordship matters.

[RZehr]

I think we have broad agreement on what we want to say. We seem to be going in circles.

This all started when I quoted a celibate Christian, faithful to biblical teaching, who calls himself a "gay Christian". I thought he had useful things to say. To me, it feels like this one phrase got picked up, ignoring everything else. If we have to all agree on what words we need to use before we can talk, it's harder to talk.

These were the words he used to describe himself. He talks to others who see themselves as gay, and is trying to communicate with them. He seemed to be very clear that his identity is in Christ and that lordship matters.

Regarding the phrase getting picked up - maybe we did miss the bigger picture, but in order to have a worth while conversation we first must agree on the definitions, or have an understanding of what we mean by the words we choose to use.

You of all people should agree with the importance of clearly defined and understood terms! I mean that as a compliment.

[JimFoxvog]

One reason a Christian might publicly identify as a "gay Christian" might be to help welcome others who identify as homosexual to a Christian group. I have the same doubts as others as whether that personally is a helpful way to look at oneself, but it could be useful in reaching out to others.

[KingdomBuilder]

One reason a Christian might publicly identify as a "gay Christian" might be to help welcome others who identify as homosexual to a Christian group. I have the same doubts as others as whether that personally is a helpful way to look at oneself, but it could be useful in reaching out to others.

I'd prefer to see someone say that they're "a Christian who overcame homosexuality"

[Neto]

One reason a Christian might publicly identify as a "gay Christian" might be to help welcome others who identify as homosexual to a Christian group. I have the same doubts as others as whether that personally is a helpful way to look at oneself, but it could be useful in reaching out to others.

I'd prefer to see someone say that they're "a Christian who overcame homosexuality"

Like the person who used to drink to the point of loosing control ('alcoholic'), how long does one need to consistently resist the temptation until he or she has "overcome" it? Six weeks? Six months? (Maybe until death?) If an enemy is totally defeated, do we need to watch for 'him'? These are questions I ask myself, and I think that this is what Paul was talking about when he talks about persevering to the end. Awareness of the danger is the first step in resisting, is it not? (Not to focus on it, but to be conscious of the need for help, both from God, and from others of God's children. There IS probably a balance here in respect to not focusing on it, in relation to use of a term like this as self-descriptive.)