Best argument for Non-resistance

[LJones]

Hello guys...

I was having a discussion with my priest today about non-resistance, self-defense, etc. As many of you know, I am a public school teacher. So, the discussion of gun ownership, etc. has been surrounding me of late. After I left the Anabaptist realm I swung back to the justified defense side of things. The recent shootings have got me thinking more and more about this position. I am sincerely struggling with my current position and where I have been.

This is the thing. I cannot see myself sitting idly by while my family or even my students are attacked and killed. My priest seems to be very non-resistant and is resigned to do no harm (he even mentioned the Martyr's Mirror today). Matter of fact any Orthodox priest who kills someone (on intention or accident) ceases to be a priest. So, it could be said that there is a strain of Non-Resistance in Orthodoxy. However, it is left up to the individual.

I was wondering if you guys would mind helping me re-think the issues and come to an area of peace within myself.

What should I do if my family are students are attacked?

[Wade]

If you can find the book: Love as Jesus Taught It by Fred Nighswander, this book got me encouraged and off the fence.

[Hats Off]

I have never faced threats so can only speak theoretically.

For the believer, death should ultimately hold no fear. Jesus told us that we should expect persecution if we follow him. If someone is threatening my wife or daughter and we kill them to protect our family, we are condemning that someone to hell. If my family were to be killed, we would be in a better place. Violence just leads to more violence. Vengeance belongs to God.

Since I am older and have no weapons, the chance that I would take defensive action if threatened is very small. However, if the Boko Haram abducted my daughters or grand daughters and 100 of their friends, it would be difficult to maintain a non resistant heart.

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian- ... rsecution/
An Egyptian Christian reflected on the way he was treated when he converted to Christ:

“In great suffering you discover a different Jesus than you do in normal life… Pain and suffering bring up to the surface all the weak points of your personality. In my weakest state, I had an incredible realization that Jesus loved me even right then.”

True empowerment does not come from human means, but through Christ alone. It often takes being at our weakest point to realize this.

Overcoming is greater than deliverance
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. —Romans 12:21

Persecuted Christians, no matter what country they are from, do not ask us to pray that persecution would end, but rather ask us to pray that they stand strong through the persecution. They do not wish to be delivered from the persecution, but rather ask us to pray that they would be able to overcome the trials that they are facing in a way that is honoring to God.

[Josh]

I guess it comes down to believing what Jesus said. Jesus said whoever wants to be my disciple must first hate his family, wife, children, etc. and I think that means abandoning the desire to kill on their behalf.

[temporal1]

I guess it comes down to believing what Jesus said. Jesus said whoever wants to be my disciple must first hate his family, wife, children, etc. and I think that means abandoning the desire to kill on their behalf.

that’s an important passage.
i’m not convinced there’s a direct correlation.

as well, having the desire to act is different from acting.

thankfully, most will never have to choose.

when this has been discussed before, it’s been pointed out, most aggressions can be neutralized without either the ultimate sacrifice, or deadly force. there are important passages about protecting the vulnerable.

[Bootstrap]

I guess it comes down to believing what Jesus said. Jesus said whoever wants to be my disciple must first hate his family, wife, children, etc. and I think that means abandoning the desire to kill on their behalf.

If you look at all of what Jesus said and did, and you believe that's what Christians should be like, I don't see how you can justify a Christian killing someone. Jesus did stand up to people, that's different. And even non-Christians agonize after killing someone - this weekend I was talking to a man who has a fairly large collection of guns and always carries, he told me about a friend who shot someone in self-defense and was never quite right after that, he just couldn't come to terms with it. I think having a clear conscience is extremely important.

From a practical perspective, have you seen the Run-Hide-Fight materials that are being taught in schools and workplaces now? They stress that your best chance is to escape and call 911. You should only hide if you can't escape. You should only fight if you can't escape or hide. This program is designed to maximize your chances, it is not based on the teaching of Jesus, but I wonder what a Christian version of that would look like - what would we do in a Mennonite school? Before we start debating whether Mennonite teachers should be packing heat, maybe we should focus on teaching people how to find alternate exits like windows or side exits or loading docks if a shooter is blocking the main entrance, having devices to jam doors shut to slow shooters down. Maybe we should talk about places to hide if it comes down to that.

In the films, most of the ways they suggest to fight are not lethal because they assume you don't have weapons. I heard one expert suggest spraying a fire extinguisher in the shooter's face, saying it is tremendously distracting and makes it hard to see or focus, giving you a chance to rush and disarm the shooter. I imagine some Mennonites would not find that compatible with their understanding of non-resistance, I would have no problem with it. I also have no problem with calling Caesar, because I believe Romans 13 gives him authority to wield the sword in precisely this kind of situation. Some Mennonites would see this as hypocritical, asking someone else to do what I cannot.

[MaxPC]

I have never faced threats so can only speak theoretically.

For the believer, death should ultimately hold no fear. Jesus told us that we should expect persecution if we follow him. If someone is threatening my wife or daughter and we kill them to protect our family, we are condemning that someone to hell. If my family were to be killed, we would be in a better place. Violence just leads to more violence. Vengeance belongs to God.

Since I am older and have no weapons, the chance that I would take defensive action if threatened is very small. However, if the Boko Haram abducted my daughters or grand daughters and 100 of their friends, it would be difficult to maintain a non resistant heart.

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian- ... rsecution/
An Egyptian Christian reflected on the way he was treated when he converted to Christ:

“In great suffering you discover a different Jesus than you do in normal life… Pain and suffering bring up to the surface all the weak points of your personality. In my weakest state, I had an incredible realization that Jesus loved me even right then.”

True empowerment does not come from human means, but through Christ alone. It often takes being at our weakest point to realize this.

Overcoming is greater than deliverance
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. —Romans 12:21

Persecuted Christians, no matter what country they are from, do not ask us to pray that persecution would end, but rather ask us to pray that they stand strong through the persecution. They do not wish to be delivered from the persecution, but rather ask us to pray that they would be able to overcome the trials that they are facing in a way that is honoring to God.

Great topic, LJones!

[LJones]

I guess it comes down to believing what Jesus said. Jesus said whoever wants to be my disciple must first hate his family, wife, children, etc. and I think that means abandoning the desire to kill on their behalf.

If you look at all of what Jesus said and did, and you believe that's what Christians should be like, I don't see how you can justify a Christian killing someone. Jesus did stand up to people, that's different. And even non-Christians agonize after killing someone - this weekend I was talking to a man who has a fairly large collection of guns and always carries, he told me about a friend who shot someone in self-defense and was never quite right after that, he just couldn't come to terms with it. I think having a clear conscience is extremely important.

From a practical perspective, have you seen the Run-Hide-Fight materials that are being taught in schools and workplaces now? They stress that your best chance is to escape and call 911. You should only hide if you can't escape. You should only fight if you can't escape or hide. This program is designed to maximize your chances, it is not based on the teaching of Jesus, but I wonder what a Christian version of that would look like - what would we do in a Mennonite school? Before we start debating whether Mennonite teachers should be packing heat, maybe we should focus on teaching people how to find alternate exits like windows or side exits or loading docks if a shooter is blocking the main entrance, having devices to jam doors shut to slow shooters down. Maybe we should talk about places to hide if it comes down to that.

In the films, most of the ways they suggest to fight are not lethal because they assume you don't have weapons. I heard one expert suggest spraying a fire extinguisher in the shooter's face, saying it is tremendously distracting and makes it hard to see or focus, giving you a chance to rush and disarm the shooter. I imagine some Mennonites would not find that compatible with their understanding of non-resistance, I would have no problem with it. I also have no problem with calling Caesar, because I believe Romans 13 gives him authority to wield the sword in precisely this kind of situation. Some Mennonites would see this as hypocritical, asking someone else to do what I cannot.

Since I am a public school teacher we were taught something similar. The fight comes when the person is immediately in your area. They actually taught us to find weapons. It was hinted that if we had a weapon in our car to go get it. They suggest scissors, ball bats, desks, etc as alternatives.

[Valerie]

The point about your conscience came up- would anyone feel that if they were a teacher & had an opportunity to protect the children (as these many cases of school shootings give NO time to plan or know what to do)- would your conscience bother you by allowing the shooter to blow away 17 children with you not putting a stop to it? If so, if you were certain that all these children were 'saved' I guess you can assume their deaths probably put them in the Kingdom with Christ- if you were not sure if they were saved as all these teens from 14 to 17 were- then do you feel comfortable that their lives were ended because you allowed the shooter to put them all to death? I am not sure one's conscience wouldn't bother them for that either?

[Sudsy]

My own view is that instead of being like Peter when he was asked if he was one of Jesus followers and Peter denied he was, we should not deny our belief in Christ even if it means our death. As for other reasons, like someone stealing and threatening my or others lives in the act, I would attempt to avoid being killed and if necessary in this avoidance I might kill that person.

In situations not obviously life threatening I think we take the path of turning the other cheek. And we go beyond that to love those who see us as their enemy and do some good for them. We try to win them to the Lord.

And when it comes to saving the lives of others, I believe there are times to stand up for others as Jesus did with the woman caught in adultery. He resisted with words and violence was avoided.

I also do not think the Christians who participated in past wars and were in involved with killing others are viewed by God as murderers. I believe that is a choice each believer can make between them and the Lord.

And when it comes to Jesus saying to hate our family, He was using hyperbole to make a point that they wouldn't be able to follow Him if they put their family ahead of doing that. He wasn't saying to lug a cross around literally either to follow Him.

I believe in non-resistance and that any disciple of Jesus will suffer. We should be prepared to die for our faith in Jesus and never to recant. I don't view it as a passive avoidance for killing when killing can stop the evil from taking the lives of others.

Anyway, that is the conclusion I have come to.